F40 Transmission - Will It Work?

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Kyle, you and Lonny and Adam should compare notes and determine if you are seeing the same thing they are with the mockup at DF. If Lonny and Adam get this pulled together, you may want to think about how the new mount (and any other mod) will be fitted into your chassis? It will be interesting to see how your chassis turns out.

I am still several weeks away from ordering and now I want to wait until the F40 mod is finalized at DF so I can get my kit set up from the start. Ken's car will be the first to have the finalized mod and I know he has been very good about providing updates to what is happening in Red Oak.
 

Adam

Administrator
Staff member
It looks like that in my chassis all that is needed to fit the F40 is to cut off and remake the trans mount. I could only get the engine and trans ~2.5" away from their mounts before the trans hit its bracket. So far it looks like everything will fit between the frame rails. It'll be tight, but I think it'll fit.

...

I wonder if there is a difference in case size in the F40s or (no offense Adam and Lonny) a slight different in the chassis? Or will the clearance that I think I have disappear once I get the engine and trans at the right height?
Your transmission's case does have some difference from KLM's transmission. Can you snap a photo of the front of the transmission where the front trans mount bolts up?

It appears that the Regal transmission from ZZP is different from what they normally send because there is no way the stock Cobalt mount can bolt on (which also means that the solid mount we had intended to use won't work either). ZZP's instructions say that you'll use the stock Cobalt mount but we've found that this won't work with the transmission KLM received.

Instead, it looks like ZZP has provided some billet aluminum pieces that bolt together to replace this mount. This mount has a rubber portion and we're going solid all the way around so it won't work for us. So we are going to have to make a new mount for the front of this F40.
 

Adam

Administrator
Staff member
Status Report
Sorry it has taken so long for us to give you guys an update. We're really trying to get this right the first time unlike when we rushed out our first parking/spot brake brackets.

Just like with many projects, this project has expanded in scope way more than we had predicted and a lot of hours have gone into it. Here's a rundown of the project so far:
  1. We did a very rough mock up on the floor. The transmission looked like it could fit but was going to be tight.
  2. We took an old chassis, cut off the old trans and engine mounts and welded on a new engine mount.
  3. We pulled that chassis from the jig and attempted to fit the F40 into it. We tried it in the stock location, 1 step forward and then 5/8 lower. It wouldn't fit. We put that chassis back in the jig and welded on the regular driver side mount and that chassis will become a shop Goblin A/T since it looks a little butchered where we cut the old mounts off.
  4. We welded out KLM's chassis the same as any other except for the new lower cage tube and driver side mount. We then made a new lower cage tube with a slight bend right where the transmission would hit. This moved the vertical strut tube out on the bottom so that needed a little work as well. We put heavy tacks on these new tubes to hold them in place for a test fit.
  5. We pulled KLM's chassis from the jig and bolted the engine and subframe to it.
  6. We were able to install our regular solid rear transmission mount but when we went to install the front mount we found that it wouldn't work.
Next Steps
Upcoming steps for just this one chassis include the following (at least this is what we can predict but you never know what you are going to run into):
  1. Modify an old driver side transmission mount upright to match the height of the F40 transmission.
  2. Use the upright and the F40 aluminum mount to design a new top plate.
  3. CNC machine the top plate on the mill.
  4. Test fit the top plate and weld it in if it looks okay.
  5. Figure out where to attach the front mount to the transmission and then design the mount. Our old mount was a simple plate with a tube welded to it. We aren't sure yet what this mount is going to look like for this particular F40.
  6. CNC out the new mount and give it a shot. The way it is going to have to mount there is a chance there will be a couple of revisions.
  7. Design a mount to relocate or eliminate the F40 shifter cable mount. It won't work for us the way it mounts up now because our custom cables mount further from the shifter arms than the Cobalt and Buick cables.
  8. Test fit the shifter to our tunnel cap and try to connect all of the linkages. Looking at it, there is a chance the hardware will have to change. We might also have to change where the bellcranks and cable mounts are on the tunnel cap.
  9. Once we get the shifter to where it can be installed we'll then find out if our current shifter cables will work. This is based off the distance between the bellcranks at the front and the cable mount on the transmission. We think it'll only be a problem if we have to move the bellcranks forward.
Where we see this going
When the F40 conversion looked to be possible with the same Goblin chassis with a different driver side transmission mount it seemed possible to offer it as an option. We would only have added a single item to the order database and to our chassis build sheets that Ray uses to build each chassis. We would have added 1 new driver side transmission mount upright and 1 new transmission mount top plate.

Now it appears that we will have to keep track of the option to go with an F40 and also which F40 is being used so that we know which mount to use up front. It is a small change but our databases and paperwork have to track the new configuration somehow so that the correct chassis and parts are pulled.

We also have to add the two new driver side trans mount pieces along with a new driver side lower cage tube, strut upright tube, upper gusset and front mount (which could be made out of up to 4 pieces). Every new piece comes with some development time and up front cost getting the pieces plasma cut, laser cut, welded, etc. There is also a cost to adding new pieces to our manufacturing lists, packing lists and shelves.

(Also keep in mind that we haven't got to the cable mount, tunnel, shifter and cables yet)

The up front development cost wouldn't be a big deal if we thought every fifth Goblin would ship with the F40 option but we are thinking it will be more like 3 to 4 F40s a year (we think the up front cost of the trans and kit from ZPP + our cost will keep most people away). At that rate we would have to charge over $2,500 just to break even over a two year period.

So what we are thinking is that the F40 kit will be a special order item that ends up being more "hand-made" than our normal products. We're not going to alter the ordering process or database. The special order will just be a note that is manually added. We aren't going to spend time up front making batches of parts and organizing them on the shelves. We'll just make those special pieces as they are ordered.

We will have a final price after completely finishing KLM's mock up but so far the price will be at least $1,600 for the F40 conversion. This does not include the $3,200 transmission and kit from ZZP. If you are piecing the parts together you might be able to save some money but based on the ZZP kit, you will need a new shifter assembly, ZZP's rear trans mount adapter, flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, intermediate shaft with reluctor wheel, speed sensor bracket and axle(s).

Short version of all of that: The F40 conversion will be a special order item at a price of at least $1,600 plus you'll need ZZP's F40 kit for $3,200.
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Your transmission's case does have some difference from KLM's transmission. Can you snap a photo of the front of the transmission where the front trans mount bolts up?

It appears that the Regal transmission from ZZP is different from what they normally send because there is no way the stock Cobalt mount can bolt on (which also means that the solid mount we had intended to use won't work either). ZZP's instructions say that you'll use the stock Cobalt mount but we've found that this won't work with the transmission KLM received.

Instead, it looks like ZZP has provided some billet aluminum pieces that bolt together to replace this mount. This mount has a rubber portion and we're going solid all the way around so it won't work for us. So we are going to have to make a new mount for the front of this F40.
Adam, Kyle,

I believe there are 2 kinds of F40 transmission housings from the research that I have conducted. There is one that will bolt up to the GM V6/V8 and one that will bolt up to the metric Ecotec. The Regal GS transmission is the Ecotec bolt pattern, I was very careful to check this before I ordered my transmission. I,ve attached photos of the F40 I have with measurements to the bolt holes that connect to the engine. Hope this helps.
 

Attachments

IDRVSLO

Goblin Guru
I commend you guys for attempting/following through with this. I just dont see the advantage v. cost and how it is beneficial.
 

deuc224

Active Member
A&L, i think its a good idea to have that as a special order item. I was looking at getting the F40 version but at 4800, it would almost be the same as gettin the f35 rebuilt to a stage 2 level that can handle the power. Il probably just order the regular frame since its been revised and tweaked a few times so its already in its optimal configuration. That is some nice work though honestly.
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Everybody has their wants and needs for building their Goblin in a unique way. Some of us will be opting for the F40 installation and we will be very proud to make it work. Please stop trying to convince us otherwise about cost and benefit. Bottom line for me is I have a 100% brand new - not used or rebuilt - driveline, all of it. This, in my opinion, is what I want to use to build my car. Please respect my decision - and several other builders - to do this for our own reasons. Oh, BTW, the $4800 figure being thrown around is about $1K higher than my driveline along with the DF estimate for the F40 mod on the kit will be as an actual cost. Not going with the ZZP parts is quite a bit cheaper. Thanks for everyone's input and opinions.
 

IDRVSLO

Goblin Guru
Everybody has their wants and needs for building their Goblin in a unique way. Some of us will be opting for the F40 installation and we will be very proud to make it work. Please stop trying to convince us otherwise about cost and benefit. Bottom line for me is I have a 100% brand new - not used or rebuilt - driveline, all of it. This, in my opinion, is what I want to use to build my car. Please respect my decision - and several other builders - to do this for our own reasons. Oh, BTW, the $4800 figure being thrown around is about $1K higher than my driveline along with the DF estimate for the F40 mod on the kit will be as an actual cost. Not going with the ZZP parts is quite a bit cheaper. Thanks for everyone's input and opinions.
Nobody is disrespecting your decision, not sure where you get that from. Again, I commend you guys for the work you are doing and the decision to do it. You get a little sensitive about other peoples opinions on here all the time....thicken the skin up a little bit. People can disagree with my IC location, my wing, my wheels, my headlights........I dont care, its mine and thats all that matters. Not everyone has to agree with your points and stating that they dont isnt disrespectful
.
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Scott,
This thread was put together to determine if the F40 can be used in a Goblin build and what it would take to make it happen. I was hoping for good conversation about what has been tried so far, what others experiences with the F40 - likely in other platforms - may be out there, and gather enough facts to know it can be done. Other's opinions about why I am - or others - not using the F35 have taken up a good portion of this thread through 5 pages. Some facts about each transmission have been placed in the thread for others to peruse and form their own opinions. We now have a commitment from DF to move forward with this and supply the necessary mods to install the F40 - so my goal has been met.
I'm not asking for anyone to agree or disagree with my own decisions on how I am choosing to build my car or with any opinions I have expressed, since they are mine. I see advantages and benefits by using the F40 transmission and the cost to me is worth it. Thanks.
 

IDRVSLO

Goblin Guru
Lol this is what I'm talking about. There are 3....maybe 4 posts out of 92 in this thread that are questioning the use of the F40 v F35. Go back and count...

It's a forum, there are discussions....but I will leave the thread because I'm not trying to derail it. Love the work you guys are putting in!
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Nobody is disrespecting your decision, not sure where you get that from. Again, I commend you guys for the work you are doing and the decision to do it. You get a little sensitive about other peoples opinions on here all the time....thicken the skin up a little bit. People can disagree with my IC location, my wing, my wheels, my headlights........I dont care, its mine and thats all that matters. Not everyone has to agree with your points and stating that they dont isnt disrespectful
.
Scott, I love everything about your Goblin, including the incredible 'wang' that you have mounted - it could be 'wang' envy. :rolleyes: Many of the things you have done to your car I hope to use as a basis for things I will hope to do to my car when it gets built. I hope to meet with you some day so we can compare builds and have good stories to share. I will try to 'thicken up' in the future. ;)
 

deuc224

Active Member
Honestly man no one was disrespecting you or trying to convince you otherwise. Hey good for you that you have DFs commitment to carry ur wishes and anyone else who wants to use that tranny, hell I was all in on one too. No need to come and complain, we are all on the same path to complete a great project. I’ll leave this thread and sorry for any disrespect or swaying you make feel I was trying to do. Take care guys, good luck.
 

IDRVSLO

Goblin Guru
Scott, I love everything about your Goblin, including the incredible 'wang' that you have mounted - it could be 'wang' envy. :rolleyes: Many of the things you have done to your car I hope to use as a basis for things I will hope to do to my car when it gets built. I hope to meet with you some day so we can compare builds and have good stories to share. I will try to 'thicken up' in the future. ;)
Would love for a huge meeting of Goblins! Would be cool to do something somewhere in the US.........I have no issues making a road trip out of it!
 

deuc224

Active Member
Lonny or Adam, if/when you offer the f40 transmission mod, i know th frame has to be altered, but will you be making transmission mounts that fit the f35 and if wanted could use an F40? Or you have to choose a frame at the time with what you plan on doing?
 

Tinkles

Well-Known Member
Adam, Kyle,

I believe there are 2 kinds of F40 transmission housings from the research that I have conducted. There is one that will bolt up to the GM V6/V8 and one that will bolt up to the metric Ecotec. The Regal GS transmission is the Ecotec bolt pattern,
Yes that is correct. The F40 was also offered in the 2003+ Saab 93s with the 2.0L Ecotec turbo engine(almost 99.9999999% the same engine as a LSJ but with a turbo). Mine is from a Saab.




 

Tinkles

Well-Known Member
I got the F40 mocked up last night. I cut the upper trans mount off and it barely does not fit. The engine is mounted in the rear most holes, rear trans mount is all bolted in, I didn't have the proper bolts to installed the front trans mount but that looks to need slight persuasion to line up, and it looks like I just need another 1/8" to 1/4" of clearance to the frame rail. I have an ETA of ~3 weeks before the chassis goes off to a fabrication shop for other modifications and I will have them address the clearance issue.


 
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