Alex and the Extended City Frame - 08 Sport/Automatic Donor

[Bretter]

Hello!

This project is about learning how to build a car. Alex is a high-school student and has long been interested in cars. He wants to go to college and major in Automotive Engineering so we are doing this project to help him learn how a car is built. In his spare time, he works part time at a tire store so hopefully the skills he learns here and at work will help prepare him for a wonderful future!

In early August, 2017 we visited with Lonny, Adam and the family to talk about the Goblin and help us decide what to do. Lonny & Adam offered test rides and lots of good discussion. Everyone at DFkitcars is very friendly and helpful - good people to say the least! Ultimately we decided to put down a deposit the next week and the fun has started!

With the deposit paid and a projected October frame delivery date, we started to look for a donor car. And that is where this adventure begins

 

[Bretter]

Donor Car

After several weeks of searching craigs list and copart, we settled on a donor with nose damage, and a sport model with slightly higher HP rating and near enough for us to go pick up. With 85k miles and a sport edition we were ready to start!

After getting it home and a new battery, we started on the initial testing of the vehicle. We could confirm the turning signal arm operation, but not running the engine and as it turns out, the gas gauge accuracy. We could not get the car to start with the key - every time we turned it to the start position, the electricity died and no engine turn over. With help from Lonny and Adam, we managed to determine that the starter does work and does turn over the engine - just could not get it running. The working theory is that some critical wires were cut in the accident and we should pull away damaged portions to get a better look inside. So off to the garage and tear down!

 

[Bretter]

9/24/17 Build Video 1 Complete

Another clue to the potential broken/cut wires is that with the key on, the gas gauge showed empty. When we drained the fuel tank by jumpering the fuel pump relay, we ended up taking out ~7gal of fuel. With a fuel tank at 13gal capacity, the gauge should have read over 1/2 full. Ah well - more investigation required there.

Also, it appears that there is more undercarriage damage than originally thought. From the below photos, you can see that the right front wheel has plenty of room behind it to the wheel well. Whereas the left front wheel has less than 1". Also, it looks like the engine is not square with the car - it is angled with the firewall and the right side engine mount definitely shows an angle. Something or more things is/are bent - we are hoping that the sub-frame is OK but we will get there to see.

 

[Bretter]

9/24/17 Build Video 2 Complete

It looks like the left control arm is bent. You can't tell from these pictures so I will try to post more details tomorrow. We are more hopeful that the sub-frame is not bent, but it is hard to think of a way that the engine can be ****-eyed like that and the sub-frame to NOT be bent - keeping fingers crossed.

 

[Bretter]

10/7/2017 Started Build Video Number 3

We got about 1/2 way through number 3 today and some things are resolved:

1. Left front control arm is bent. In looking at the subframe, it may not be bent which we are hoping for!
2. Front bearings need replaced - have to decide if to stay with 5 bolt or move to 4 bolt for more choices on wheels.

Bent front left control arm

Front right control arm looks OK.

Subframe on the driver side looks OK from here. Still need to get it out to confirm.

This is a sport trim, so it has the FE3 suspension and JL9 brakes.
1. The springs are different - trying to figure out what the difference is.
2. See next post on comparison.


Thanks!

 

[Bretter]

Original Source (sorry if duplicated somewhere):
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/suspension-67/suspension-brake-facts-fe1-fe3-fe5-j41-jm4-jl9-137064/
and
http://www.chevycobaltforum.com/threads/suspension-and-brake-stats-fe1-fe3-fe5-j41-jm4-jl9.1468/
Hope this helps if you need it!

Suspension and brake facts (FE1, FE3, FE5, J41, JM4, JL9)
This is a sticky covering the various OEM suspension and brake packages available on the different models Cobalts. I do not have all the facts yet, and will note where information is needed. If you have a fact, post it, and I'll add it to the list.

Thanks to Maven for a lot of info. Instead of re-posting here, look below for a nice part number list.

The suspensions:
Starting with the FE1, and then the changes with each up-level system

FE1 suspension
19-mm front stabilizer bar
16-mm rear stabilizer bar
Stamped steel front lower control arms

FE3 suspension
22-mm front and rear stabilizer bars
Cast aluminum front lower control arms
FE3 shocks and springs

FE5 suspension - 2005-07 years
24-mm front stabilizer bar
FE5 shocks and struts. The springs may be different from some FE3 models.
Larger front end links

FE5 suspension - 2008 and up years
24-mm rear stabilizer bar
NEW FE5(LNF) shocks, struts, and springs.
Updated front knuckle

The Brakes
Brake systems are independent of suspension system, even though many parts are dependent on each other

J41
Front disc; 256mm x 23.69mm front rotors, 50mm single piston iron calipers
Rear drum; 50mm single piston iron calipers, 9.06" rear drums
4x100 wheels
(LS/LT)

JM4
Same as J41 but with ABS
(LS/LT w/ABS)

5 Lug JM4
ABS front disc; 276mm x 23.69mm rotors, 52mm single piston iron calipers
Rear drum; (unchanged except for 5 lugs)
5x110 wheels
(LT w/ABS and upgraded wheels, LT2, 2009 LT2 Sport)

JL9
ABS 4 wheel disc; 296mm x 26mm frt rotors, 54mm single piston iron calipers
Rear; solid 270mm x 14mm rear rotors, 38mm single piston iron calipers
5x110 wheels
(SS/SC, SS/NA, 2.4L Sport)

JL9/LNF
ABS 4 wheel disc; 315.5mm x 26mm frt rotors, 38mm 4 piston Brembo aluminum calipers
Rear; vented 292mm x 19.9mm rear rotors, 40mm single piston iron calipers
5x110 wheels
(SS/TC)

The Cars
These are just Cobalts. If anyone can fill me in on G5's, Ion's or HHR's, I'll add that.

2005

Base, LS, LT - FE1 with J41 or JM4
SS/SC - FE5 with JL9

2006 - 07

LS, LT, LTZ - FE1 with J41, JM4, or (2007) 5-lug JM4
SS/NA - FE3 with JL9
SS/SC - FE5 with JL9

2008 (updated FE5 specs began this year)

LS, LT - FE1 with J41, JM4, or 5-lug JM4
Sport - FE3 with JL9
SS/TC - FE5 with JL9(LNF)

2009

LS, LT - FE1 with J41, JM4, or 5-lug JM4
SS/TC - FE5 with JL9(LNF)

Part interchangeability

So far, and to the best of our collective knowledge, every single suspension part is completely interchangable between models. Some rules apply, which are listed here:

1. If you change the front anti-sway bar, you must be careful to get the proper model year. As explained below by Maven, the FE5 front bar mounting changed between 2005-06. It appears the simple trick it to just get the 2005 FE5 parts to insure compatibility.

2. You can change the rear FE1 axle to an FE5 axle. The FE5 axle has provisions for mounting rear disk brakes. So you either have to cut those off to put on your drums back on, or you have to convert to rear disks. Converting to rear disks does NOT mean you have to convert to 5 lug hubs, but you are going to have to find some 4-lug rotors!

3. Knuckles are the same on every suspension up through 2007. In 2008, the FE5 knuckle was updated with various improvements for bump steer. It is NOT interchangeable. You can still use the GM Racing knuckles for those earlier years

4. Every other part should be completely compatible. For instance, you don't have to use FE1 struts if you want to put on FE5 springs, and so forth.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Delta Brake Torque Specs
Brake Caliper Bleeder Valve - Front With RPO LNF
14 N·m
124 lb in

Brake Caliper Bleeder Valve - Front Without RPO LNF
11 N·m
97 lb in

Brake Caliper Bleeder Valve - Rear
11 N·m
97 lb in

Brake Caliper Bolt - With RPO LNF
130 N·m
96 lb ft

Brake Caliper Bracket Bolt
115 N·m
85 lb ft

Brake Caliper Guide Pin Bolt
34 N·m
25 lb ft

Brake Hose Fitting Bolt - Front With RPO LNF
40 N·m
30 lb ft

Brake Hose Fitting Bolt - Front Without RPO LNF
48 N·m
35 lb ft

Brake Hose Fitting Bolt - Rear
48 N·m
35 lb ft

I put red loctite(272, etc) on all of these bolts except the bleeder screw and the bolts/banjo bolt for the brake hose. Overkill? yeah. But brakes falling off sucks



FE1 Part Numbers
Sway bar: 15822933(18mm not 19)
Bar clamps: 22608428(FE3 same)
Bar insulators: 15821022
Rear Axle: 15232753
Bar Links: 15782690(same as FE3)
Struts: 15876215/15876216(L/R, same as FE3)
Shocks: 22696400
Frt Springs: various, L/R diff.(not used by other RPOs)
Rr Springs: 22705489
Lower control arms: multiple numbers, varies by year and equipment, steel, not used by other RPOs
Knuckle: 22667248/22667249(L/R, same as all models except LNF/FE5

FE3 Part numbers:
Sway Bar: 15782964
Clamps: 22608428(same as FE1)
Insulators: 15820163
Rear Axle: 15232752(Same as FE5)
Links: 15782690(same as FE1)
Struts: 15876215/15876216(L/R, same as FE1)
Shocks: 10368516
Frt Springs: various, L/r different, (not shared wirth other RPOs)
Rr springs: 10390024(same as FE5)
Lower control arms: 15787556/15787555( L/R, aluminum, NOT the same as FE5)
Knuckle: 22667248/22667249(L/R same as all models except LNF)

FE5 part numbers
Sway bar: 15821093
Clamps: 22608428('05 only , 1bolt/1slot) 10389617(2 bolt, ALL other FE5 including LNF)
Insulators: 22700091('05 only) 15822993(06-07 only)
Rear Axle: 15232752(same as FE3)
Links: 20784688(ALL FE5 same, including LNF)
Struts: 15247245/15247246(L/R)
Shocks: 22728821
Frt Springs: 21994335(L/R same)
Rr springs: 10390024(same as FE3)
Lower control arm: 15803766/15803767( L/R, right same as LNF)
Knuckle: 22667248/22667249(same as all except LNF)

LNF/FE5 Part numbers
Sway bar: 15782696
Clamps: 10389617(same as 06-07 FE5)
Insulators: 25847760
Rear Axle: 25864579
Links: 20784688( ALL FE5 same)
Struts: 19181044/19181043(L/R)
Shocks: 25793745
Frt Springs: 25833647(L/R same)
Rr Springs: 25821162
Lower control arm: 25930725/15803767( L/R, right same on ALL FE5)
Knuckle: 25923942/25923941(L/R, unique to LNF)

 

[JSATX]

I personally think the wheel options in 4x100 are a lot better. Especially if you’re trying to stay with flowformed wheels.

 

[DanPerryy]

Original Source (sorry if duplicated somewhere):
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/suspension-67/suspension-brake-facts-fe1-fe3-fe5-j41-jm4-jl9-137064/
and
http://www.chevycobaltforum.com/threads/suspension-and-brake-stats-fe1-fe3-fe5-j41-jm4-jl9.1468/
Hope this helps if you need it!

Suspension and brake facts (FE1, FE3, FE5, J41, JM4, JL9)
This is a sticky covering the various OEM suspension and brake packages available on the different models Cobalts. I do not have all the facts yet, and will note where information is needed. If you have a fact, post it, and I'll add it to the list.

Thanks to Maven for a lot of info. Instead of re-posting here, look below for a nice part number list.

The suspensions:
Starting with the FE1, and then the changes with each up-level system

FE1 suspension
19-mm front stabilizer bar
16-mm rear stabilizer bar
Stamped steel front lower control arms

FE3 suspension
22-mm front and rear stabilizer bars
Cast aluminum front lower control arms
FE3 shocks and springs

FE5 suspension - 2005-07 years
24-mm front stabilizer bar
FE5 shocks and struts. The springs may be different from some FE3 models.
Larger front end links

FE5 suspension - 2008 and up years
24-mm rear stabilizer bar
NEW FE5(LNF) shocks, struts, and springs.
Updated front knuckle

The Brakes
Brake systems are independent of suspension system, even though many parts are dependent on each other

J41
Front disc; 256mm x 23.69mm front rotors, 50mm single piston iron calipers
Rear drum; 50mm single piston iron calipers, 9.06" rear drums
4x100 wheels
(LS/LT)

JM4
Same as J41 but with ABS
(LS/LT w/ABS)

5 Lug JM4
ABS front disc; 276mm x 23.69mm rotors, 52mm single piston iron calipers
Rear drum; (unchanged except for 5 lugs)
5x110 wheels
(LT w/ABS and upgraded wheels, LT2, 2009 LT2 Sport)

JL9
ABS 4 wheel disc; 296mm x 26mm frt rotors, 54mm single piston iron calipers
Rear; solid 270mm x 14mm rear rotors, 38mm single piston iron calipers
5x110 wheels
(SS/SC, SS/NA, 2.4L Sport)

JL9/LNF
ABS 4 wheel disc; 315.5mm x 26mm frt rotors, 38mm 4 piston Brembo aluminum calipers
Rear; vented 292mm x 19.9mm rear rotors, 40mm single piston iron calipers
5x110 wheels
(SS/TC)

The Cars
These are just Cobalts. If anyone can fill me in on G5's, Ion's or HHR's, I'll add that.

2005

Base, LS, LT - FE1 with J41 or JM4
SS/SC - FE5 with JL9

2006 - 07

LS, LT, LTZ - FE1 with J41, JM4, or (2007) 5-lug JM4
SS/NA - FE3 with JL9
SS/SC - FE5 with JL9

2008 (updated FE5 specs began this year)

LS, LT - FE1 with J41, JM4, or 5-lug JM4
Sport - FE3 with JL9
SS/TC - FE5 with JL9(LNF)

2009

LS, LT - FE1 with J41, JM4, or 5-lug JM4
SS/TC - FE5 with JL9(LNF)

Part interchangeability

So far, and to the best of our collective knowledge, every single suspension part is completely interchangable between models. Some rules apply, which are listed here:

1. If you change the front anti-sway bar, you must be careful to get the proper model year. As explained below by Maven, the FE5 front bar mounting changed between 2005-06. It appears the simple trick it to just get the 2005 FE5 parts to insure compatibility.

2. You can change the rear FE1 axle to an FE5 axle. The FE5 axle has provisions for mounting rear disk brakes. So you either have to cut those off to put on your drums back on, or you have to convert to rear disks. Converting to rear disks does NOT mean you have to convert to 5 lug hubs, but you are going to have to find some 4-lug rotors!

3. Knuckles are the same on every suspension up through 2007. In 2008, the FE5 knuckle was updated with various improvements for bump steer. It is NOT interchangeable. You can still use the GM Racing knuckles for those earlier years

4. Every other part should be completely compatible. For instance, you don't have to use FE1 struts if you want to put on FE5 springs, and so forth.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Delta Brake Torque Specs
Brake Caliper Bleeder Valve - Front With RPO LNF
14 N·m
124 lb in

Brake Caliper Bleeder Valve - Front Without RPO LNF
11 N·m
97 lb in

Brake Caliper Bleeder Valve - Rear
11 N·m
97 lb in

Brake Caliper Bolt - With RPO LNF
130 N·m
96 lb ft

Brake Caliper Bracket Bolt
115 N·m
85 lb ft

Brake Caliper Guide Pin Bolt
34 N·m
25 lb ft

Brake Hose Fitting Bolt - Front With RPO LNF
40 N·m
30 lb ft

Brake Hose Fitting Bolt - Front Without RPO LNF
48 N·m
35 lb ft

Brake Hose Fitting Bolt - Rear
48 N·m
35 lb ft

I put red loctite(272, etc) on all of these bolts except the bleeder screw and the bolts/banjo bolt for the brake hose. Overkill? yeah. But brakes falling off sucks



FE1 Part Numbers
Sway bar: 15822933(18mm not 19)
Bar clamps: 22608428(FE3 same)
Bar insulators: 15821022
Rear Axle: 15232753
Bar Links: 15782690(same as FE3)
Struts: 15876215/15876216(L/R, same as FE3)
Shocks: 22696400
Frt Springs: various, L/R diff.(not used by other RPOs)
Rr Springs: 22705489
Lower control arms: multiple numbers, varies by year and equipment, steel, not used by other RPOs
Knuckle: 22667248/22667249(L/R, same as all models except LNF/FE5

FE3 Part numbers:
Sway Bar: 15782964
Clamps: 22608428(same as FE1)
Insulators: 15820163
Rear Axle: 15232752(Same as FE5)
Links: 15782690(same as FE1)
Struts: 15876215/15876216(L/R, same as FE1)
Shocks: 10368516
Frt Springs: various, L/r different, (not shared wirth other RPOs)
Rr springs: 10390024(same as FE5)
Lower control arms: 15787556/15787555( L/R, aluminum, NOT the same as FE5)
Knuckle: 22667248/22667249(L/R same as all models except LNF)

FE5 part numbers
Sway bar: 15821093
Clamps: 22608428('05 only , 1bolt/1slot) 10389617(2 bolt, ALL other FE5 including LNF)
Insulators: 22700091('05 only) 15822993(06-07 only)
Rear Axle: 15232752(same as FE3)
Links: 20784688(ALL FE5 same, including LNF)
Struts: 15247245/15247246(L/R)
Shocks: 22728821
Frt Springs: 21994335(L/R same)
Rr springs: 10390024(same as FE3)
Lower control arm: 15803766/15803767( L/R, right same as LNF)
Knuckle: 22667248/22667249(same as all except LNF)

LNF/FE5 Part numbers
Sway bar: 15782696
Clamps: 10389617(same as 06-07 FE5)
Insulators: 25847760
Rear Axle: 25864579
Links: 20784688( ALL FE5 same)
Struts: 19181044/19181043(L/R)
Shocks: 25793745
Frt Springs: 25833647(L/R same)
Rr Springs: 25821162
Lower control arm: 25930725/15803767( L/R, right same on ALL FE5)
Knuckle: 25923942/25923941(L/R, unique to LNF)

It would be nice to put this in a general page or on the platform page.

 

[Silverback]

It would be nice to put this in a general page or on the platform page.

Thanks, great links! That should be a sticky.

 

[Bretter]

I personally think the wheel options in 4x100 are a lot better. Especially if you’re trying to stay with flowformed wheels.

Agreed!

At one point, I thought that I read that the axle was a larger diameter for the sport/SS vs the LT/LS. But, I can't seem to find that post right now. And in the discussions with several people including Adam, they have said that going to a 4x100 is OK with just replacing the hubs. Can someone please confirm this is true? i.e. no axle differences between sport/SS vs LT/LS and that the standard 4x100 hub will work with a direct replacement? (and my plan would be to replace all 4 hubs to get to the 4x100 for all 4 wheels)

Thanks!

 

[TheNuker]

The 4x100 hubs are a direct replacement for Sport/SS-SC NOT TC models.

I used an 07 SS/SC donor myself and switched to 4x100 hubs without ABS. Working great.

Nuker-

 

[Briann1177]

Yeah, I believe the only options for the SS/TC are stock or redrill to 5x4.5.

 

[PHerder]

Yeah, I believe the only options for the SS/TC are stock or redrill to 5x4.5.

One other option is to replace the axles with the bearing hubs back to the SC version of axles and the 4 lug hubs. Especially if you are needing to replace the axles due to mileage! YMMV.

 

[ctuinstra]

The 4x100 hubs are a direct replacement for Sport/SS-SC NOT TC models.

I used an 07 SS/SC donor myself and switched to 4x100 hubs without ABS. Working great.

Nuker-

That was the missing link for me. All I remembered was that the 4x100 hubs didn't work on the SS, but now I see that it's the SS/TC!

 

[Briann1177]

One other option is to replace the axles with the bearing hubs back to the SC version of axles and the 4 lug hubs. Especially if you are needing to replace the axles due to mileage! YMMV.

So the SCs and TCs are splined the same way on the tranny side?

 

[Bretter]

The 4x100 hubs are a direct replacement for Sport/SS-SC NOT TC models.

I used an 07 SS/SC donor myself and switched to 4x100 hubs without ABS. Working great.

Nuker-

Nuker,

We will probably do the same - have to do some more research on wheels etc. but looking good for going to the 4x100 plan. I will look through your build docs, but what did you do about the brakes? i.e. from the post above, the brakes are a different size for the JL9 package compared to others - i.e. did you get calipers etc. for smaller discs?

 

[PHerder]

As far as I can find, the transmission is the same so the input part of the axles has to be the same and I am thinking that the "intermediate" shaft (used to keep both axles the same length) would have to have the same input as the transmission.

Best test would be someone who has a TC pull the axles from both sides (not the "intermediate" shaft which is discontinued BTW) and measure the inner side of the axle stub diameter so we can compare it to a SC axle. Here is an example of my SC axle. Both sides are the same with the intermediate shaft making up the difference between the transmission and the engine pulley side. This axle came out of my 159k mile donor and is being replaced. It came out of the intermediate shaft and was a bear to remove! Both axles should be the exact same with only the spline ends that go into the bearing hubs a different size.

 

[Briann1177]

I think you're right.

https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/drivetrain-79/lsj-vs-lnf-axles-293002/

 

[PHerder]

I think you're right.

https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/drivetrain-79/lsj-vs-lnf-axles-293002/

That was a great find! Good thing about the Goblin, it is ~ half the weight of the stock SS so I believe those with the TC can get away with the "toothpick" size axles (as commented in the above linked article!

 

[Bretter]

10/9/2017 Build Video 3 complete

We have the subframe out and from what we can see, it doesn't appear to be bent - i.e. the bolts came out OK without binding and looking at the subframe, I can't tell immediately that it is bent. The engine is still ****-eyed, but that appears to be the main frame and the engine mounts. So, I took some measurements to see what we have - if someone can confirm whether they are correct or bent would be a great help!

The subframe seen from the side:

I put the strait edge with the 1" point being on the inside of the corner bolt hole:

Back right (passenger) to front left (driver) reads ~41-13/16" (I had to subtract the initial 1" from seen below):

And Back left (driver) to front right (passenger) reads ~42-3/16" (again subtract the 1" start point below):

Obviously not square, but we are not sure if it is supposed to be or not?

Also, any concern with this amount of rust on the subframe? From here it looks like just surface rust that will get cleaned/blasted off before painting, but how does this compare to the experience of others?