New donor, won't crank - clutch pedal/evap codes thrown

[Mayor West]

09 SS/TC 129k miles. Copart stayed as run/drives.

Cranking does nothing, no sounds or clicks. Have tested a secondary known good battery and no changes.

Haven't gotten too much taken apart, I'm wanting to make sure it runs before I do so.

I have the following DTC's: P0808 & P0453. I posted in my build thread but wanted to branch out here to maybe get some more visibility. Briann1177's posted some service manual help and it's greatly appreciated.

Clutch pedal switch is the 3 wire version that sweeps.

I don't have a tech2 so I can only do so much with my multimeter.

I've tested line C/Gray on my clutch pedal sensor to have 4.9v, within spec.

Infested the resistance on wire A (tan) with the ignition off and couldn't seem to get any reading, assuming I was doing that wrong but it could be the reason all of this is jacked up.

Sweeping the sensor reads (to me) fine and varies through the range, however it does spike on the initial movement (from 0 movement to barely any) as in it settles on a number and moves normally. I assumed this was since the sensors out of the car, it was out of the travel range of the sensor but I could be wrong.

I read the fuel pump has a sensor tied into the clutch wire, and being that I have both an evap and clutch pedal high range codes, could it be the ECM?

I think I need to test the wires at the ECM now but I'm very new to this wiring and if anyone has a layout of the sockets I'd really appreciate it! In the mean time I'll search around for one.

 

[ctuinstra]

Let's back up here a bit and start at the beginning. I'm worried that you might be going down a deep, deep rabbit hole.

This is a complete donor and you have done nothing to it, correct? The previous owner may have, I get that. So assuming nothing unusual has been done (wires cut, wrong parts, etc) we should be able to move on and not have to worry about that.

Can you post a video of the dash while trying to crank it. What you see on the dash and hear what is happening can help determine the issue.

Before I would go any further, I would check and clean the grounding lug on the transmission. I believe that's where it's at from the last time I seen one. They have been known to cause all kinds of weird electrical issues that plague people that never figure it out. I have personally experienced it on Tiffany's car, her doors would lock and unlock on their own all the time and then eventually it would not crank or start either. Fixed the ground and the car started right up and never had door lock issues again. When I say clean the ground, I don't mean blow the dust off of it; take it off and sand and grind on it to expose shiny clean metal on all surfaces. I cannot tell you how many times I see and hear about poor grounds.

The codes really help but a code such a the P0808 of a 5v line being too high is not a normal issue such as a bad pot. They are fed a 5v reference line and that doesn't normally go too high. The only way that would happen is if the 5v regulator is bad in the ECM or BCM (whichever sources the 5V).

1) Clean that ground and the one on the battery.
2) Take a video of the cranking and post it.

 

[Mayor West]

The car, aside from an intake, appears stock as far as modifications go. It has been wrecked and repaired before but that opens a ton more questions as to what could have changed, so I agree let's start from the start. Driver door and panels have been resprayed so it has ben tboned and repaired before being salvaged from the rear end accident.

The car has only been slightly disassembled. IE doors, hood, trunk, seats, lights. No electrical work has been done or further dissaasembly.

I've used a battery cleaning tool and cleaned all the contacts in the trunk. I took the fuse housing off to clean that post as well, I sanded all mounting points.

I haven't found the transmission ground yet, nothing's been removed except the non-existent front bumper so it's tight in there right now.

I'm looking at the starter and it's completely corroded and green. I'm going to remove it for cleaning/inspection now.

Video here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l9oiteyre5wo1q0/20190630_114800.mp4?dl=0

 

[BaltimoreHokie]

So, First I would take a screwdriver, try and jump the poles for the starter to see if it will crank. ....or you can also do this by taking the starter relay from the fuse box in the engine bay and taking a wire and connecting them together. It will crank, assuming the starter is good.

This provides power straight to the starter, which should make it turn. If you do this, when the key in the run position it may start. I had a issue where my starter fuse was not grounded, and I used this method to jump the starter, to start the car.

 

[Mayor West]

Yeah I'm familiar with jumping the solenoid, and I was about to try that after removing the starter to clean it up but I sheared off a solenoid bolt removing the lead to clean the contacts since they super tarnished and corroded. Oops.

I've got a new one on order so in the mean time have removed all engine bay grounds and sanded the contacts clean.

In looking into the fuse box I found that about half of the micro fuses in the engine bay are never active, IE neither active with or without the ignition on (with battery in) I'm going to make a map of them later to make sure they're all accounted for.

 

[ctuinstra]

Yeah I'm familiar with jumping the solenoid, and I was about to try that after removing the starter to clean it up but I sheared off a solenoid bolt removing the lead to clean the contacts since they super tarnished and corroded. Oops.

I've got a new one on order so in the mean time have removed all engine bay grounds and sanded the contacts clean.

In looking into the fuse box I found that about half of the micro fuses in the engine bay are never active, IE neither active with or without the ignition on (with battery in) I'm going to make a map of them later to make sure they're all accounted for.

Very common issue with the starter. I forgot about that one. Most of them break if you try to take the bolts off. It's probably for the best anyway. Ours broke and we bought a new starter also.

 

[BaltimoreHokie]

Yeah I'm familiar with jumping the solenoid, and I was about to try that after removing the starter to clean it up but I sheared off a solenoid bolt removing the lead to clean the contacts since they super tarnished and corroded. Oops.

I've got a new one on order so in the mean time have removed all engine bay grounds and sanded the contacts clean.

In looking into the fuse box I found that about half of the micro fuses in the engine bay are never active, IE neither active with or without the ignition on (with battery in) I'm going to make a map of them later to make sure they're all accounted for.

Hmm, There still may be a away to jump the poles....and make the solenoid stay in the on position. If you have it off. just hook it up to a battery with jumpers and see what you can get to happen. At least then you would be able to figure out if that was the issue.

 

[Mayor West]

The solenoid seems to be dead, I can't jump the nub to get the solenoid to extend the plunger. The starter just spins and never extends. Its replacement should be here Friday so we'll see this weekend.

 

[Mayor West]

Update: I received an entirely brand new starter today to replace the broken solenoid posts on the original one. It's installed and hooked up. I turned the key on and jumped the solenoid posts; the starter spun but it never engaged the flywheel.

The solenoid has a plunger that I thought tossed out the gear to grab the flywheel, but is it actually holding it in place to prevent jumping the posts like I'm doing? I'm going to remove the solenoid all together and try it that way.

Any thoughts on your experience with jumping the starter solenoid would be appreciated!

 

[BaltimoreHokie]

Update: I received an entirely brand new starter today to replace the broken solenoid posts on the original one. It's installed and hooked up. I turned the key on and jumped the solenoid posts; the starter spun but it never engaged the flywheel.

The solenoid has a plunger that I thought tossed out the gear to grab the flywheel, but is it actually holding it in place to prevent jumping the posts like I'm doing? I'm going to remove the solenoid all together and try it that way.

Any thoughts on your experience with jumping the starter solenoid would be appreciated!

So I'm a little confused you got a completely new starter. Or you got the parts to fix what you thought was broken on your old starter?

 

[Mayor West]

I broke the poles on the original solenoid, so I bought a new assembly. It was only a few more dollars than just replacing the solenoid itself.

I just removed the solenoid and I saw for myself, the energized state sends the plunger inwards, throwing the gear out to engage the flywheel.

..... ugh... now my starter isn't moving when I jump the posts.

 

[Lonny]

Are you jumping across the two big posts or from the positive post to the little starter post that your starter wire goes to.
Shorting across the two big post just spins the starter, positive to the little post moves a solenoid that engages the starter gear and then shorts across the two big posts making the starter spin.

 

[Mayor West]

Are you jumping across the two big posts or from the positive post to the little starter post that your starter wire goes to.
Shorting across the two big post just spins the starter, positive to the little post moves a solenoid that engages the starter gear and then shorts across the two big posts making the starter spin.

I'm jumping the two big posts on the solenoid, from where the main live wire connects to where the starter itself connects. I also have the solenoid plug jumped to one of those wires as well. Now my starter doesn't spinning at all, but I can get the solenoid to throw the plunger out.

Now, when I turn the key on in my car the MPH/RPM/Gas gauges dip below their 0 points and sort of bug out for a few seconds before going back to zero.

 

[Lonny]

If you want to bench check your starter you will need to hook positive to the upper big terminal and ground the starter case then short from the positive terminal to the small terminal that the starter signal wire hooks to.
Early model starters have a nut on the signal wire, later model starter signal wire plug in. The one in the image is an early model.

 

[Mayor West]

After jumping the solenoid trigger to the hot wire, the dash lights went crazy, on/off several times a second until I turned the key off. Now nothing turns on except the CEL when the keys turned on. When I turn the key to start. It clicks over and over and over very quickly. The starter never spun, the solenoid just clicked on/off over and over along with the rest of the car. I could physically tell which relay was clicking, none of the main ones were making any vibrations but the sound was coming from that area.

The trigger purple wire was removed during all of this, with an alligator clip on the lead.

This is fun!

 

[ctuinstra]

Yeah, it's best to disconnect the purple wire if you are going to jump it while on the car so as not to back feed anything. The safest thing to do would be to bench test it like Lonny posted.

When you say is "clicks over and over and over very quickly", what is clicking, the starter relay or something else? If it's the starter relay, are you sure the battery is charged? That's a tell-tale sign that the battery is too low to spin the starter. Otherwise it could be a terrible ground or other connection dropping the battery voltage during cranking.

 

[Mayor West]

It was clicking after the lead was removed. I couldn't tell from where exactly, I put my hand on all the relays and couldn't feel any of them going nuts.

We're getting ready for dinner/etc so I didn't have time to pull the starter back off to bench test but I'll do it tonight or later this weekend.

Sort of discouraged after the dash went crazy afterwards, the speedo/tach/gas were all over the place too. I'll take another video tonight. It's definitely regressed from the start. I love a challenge but electrics aren't something I'm super comfortable in when it comes to my car rebuilding past.

I already removed all the grounds I could get my hands on and sanded the leads to make sure they're good.

 

[Mayor West]

I bench test the new starter and it's fine. I'm getting inconsistent dash lighting still, it was ok for a few minutes but now it's back to being all over the place.

I found the relays clicking to be the two large square relays attached to the BCM. Both the black and grey ones click over and over when the car key is cranked, and continue to click over and over after the key is put back into on. The lights flicker and only the CEL and theft light show up now. The other lights, if they ever show up, immediately go out after putting the key to on.

My OBD2 reader no longer works, it doesn't seem to get any power from the port. The battery looks to be fine and spun the starter with ease. I'll get a charger tomorrow, though, since I've been messing with it so much this week.

At this point I'm sort of hesitant to try again and bypass a start with the starter itself, nothing seems to be happy in the electrics department.

Not sure where to look next.

Video of dash is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nqv0r4vyd75is5f/20190705_233807.mp4?dl=0

 

[ctuinstra]

Daniel, that is some good troubleshooting and does help us to help you.

I think it's best to keep it simple to start. I'm focused on why you don't have power to the OBD2 reader, if you don't have it there, you probably don't have it back at the BCM or ECM (where ever it comes from). Verify, if you haven't done so already, the red/white (I believe) wire going to the reader to make sure it doesn't have 12v on it. I don't remember if it's powered all the time or with the key. You may have a fuse blown.

Check all the fuses while you are at it.

 

[Briann1177]

If I remember correctly and I could very well be mistaken, but I think power for the OBD-II port comes from the fuse box and is shared with the accessory ports. That shouldn't cause your gauge cluster lights to flicker on/off like they are, but it will prevent you from reading codes. However, with the way things are I'm not even sure if a code would even properly set.

To me all the relays clicking and lights flashing indicates something wrong with the electrical system. I would go back and double check all your low speed, dark green wiring along with checking the high speed, tan/black wiring. Also, you could very well have a loose connection. I've had trouble with getting my ECM connectors seated correctly. You have to make sure they're seated flat before latching them down. Also, double check your BCM connectors to make sure they're installed correctly. And like Chad said, check fuses and grounds, but I think you already double checked the grounds.

I think your starter, OBD-II port not working, previous engine codes for the clutch sensor, etc are all symptoms of a bigger problem. Keep us up to date on what you find.