Alternative Engine/Trans Choices

Dale E

Well-Known Member
So a few folks have brought up using other engines to power their Goblins. Since I suggested doing an other builds forum topic the stage went quiet! There may be a day, when the Cobalt source has dried up, since it was replaced with I believe the Chevrolet Cruze.

Personal opinions here we go! Pop a top and sit back, this rabbit hole may go deep!

When I changed from a non-computer engine in my Stalker V6, I thought it was going to be hard. It wasn't really. A new motor mount, a gutted by ZZP computer (made for the dune buggy folks so it lets the engine start and run) re-routing the water hoses. The wiring harness was the worst part of do it. Hook up the battery, ignition and your off. The rest of the wiring there just worked as before. Power and ground was all they needed. a few sniggle little bits here and there.

The Locost seven folks and other "my own car builders" use a hodge-podge of parts from various sources and a great amount of fabrications with some trials and errors. The Goblin kit is bolt and go -- plug and play -- one source mostly!

Consider I live in Europa. I'm going to want to use an engine and donor of the hot hatch crowd. VW GTI, Ford Focus RS, Audi TT Turbo, maybe a Renault, Fiat, Alfa sourced, or gosh a GM Opal, Mini Cooper. These will all need a different chassis mounting design.

Consider I live in Japan or Australia. I'm going to use a Honda Civic SI, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Mazda what else is there. These cars also sell in Africa and Mexico markets.

Bring it back home. You name it, its here somewhere for you.

The good. As you know, the Goblin is a kit - and a good bit of kit (English)!! One stop shopping for the most part.

The not so good. You will need fabrication skills, or someone to build mounts for you if you go another engine route. Sometimes you can get lucky and score from another swappers experience. Forum topic: Mid Engine Cobalt by Classy -- This different engine topic was brought up there. Talk the talk but no walk the walk! No ones fault - just didn't get in the oven. There I did an experiment and placed a V6 Supercharged GM engine and automatic transaxle sourced from a 1999 Buick Regal/Pontiac GTP. It is doable with a Cobalt chassis with some fabricated mounting parts. Believe it, but some of the mounts can actually be sourced from the Fiero swap crowd. The passengers side outer CV joint has to be replaced (GM wisdom made the inner one a 39 spline on the Transaxle). Now a V8 would fit too but a bit closer tolerances. And you could go longitudinally with an Audi/Porsche Boxer, Subaru transaxle unit.

What does this mean? It means you can do anything if you set your mind to it. Dial it in boys and girls. DF Kit has made it easy. They did all the block walking and research, scaling, modeling, sourcing. You get to purchase a fabulously designed - with not many flaws - build the back yard swing set car and call it your own. Throw some bling and have a fling!

Suggestions for new builders. Build your Goblin stock to begin. Drive it, learn it, it's a different experience from the normal Cobalt donor. It's going to handle differently from your daily driver. You can add your power toys and bling later. Like my Stalker is 12 years old now and it isn't finished. Keep dreaming of the possibilities. Find an Autocross locally and go have fun - or get competitive and beat everyone. Good brakes and sticky tires (suggested many places here on the forum a already). The Goblin is a Cobalt undressed and went on a huge diet successfully!! If you don't learn it's driving characteristics it will hurt you! We don't want that. We just want the smiles per mile! Oh, and you don't need a zillion HP. With a stock lowest powered Cobalt engine, you will still win the light to light race. Decide what you want - street, some race, full track attack! Build to that end goal.

Shutting up now. If you want to use a different engine in your Goblin then do it. Just know it isn't a plug and play adventure anymore. You are going to have to do your own research, development, design and sourcing parts. It's not going to mount to the mounting holes and brackets on the kit you purchased. Guys sometimes are fans of a particular brand. Chevy, Ford, Dodge, foreign. You can still keep that. Heck you can even use a motorcycle engine for power.

Okay, time to totally shut the door. I was at DF Kit manufacturing before it was. Another kit was being made there. I'm a stoked out fan of all things cars and probably partial to foreign ones that we can't get in America (unfortunately). I did my first autocross/gymkhana in 1968, near Ramstein, Germany. Watched the stuff you see on you tube (Berg Franky channel), I have a few designs with a couple models of rear suspensions I would experiment with on a Goblin. I'm old and not going to build or buy anymore toys. But I certainly encourage you all in your journeys and would drive a few hundred miles to help you out.

And finally = whew! Lonny at DF has a huge amount of things on his plate and is planning some awesome future things. It's going to be amazing what's in the pipeline if it can come to fruition. I stand behind it!! (And as I said before - my lips are sealed and sworn to secrecy) I'm in the stands cheering him and you all on!

The floors open, the curtain is pulled. Now, you all take over and light the lights on other engine choice options. And if someone wants to actually do it do it, document the journey and inspire!

Dale
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Dale, good that you have brought this up, since as you say as well as a few others, the Cobalt supply won't be available forever. We already know the availability of the SS models is dwindling daily and becoming harder to find (and more expensive when you can locate one). A saving grace is the availability of crate Ecotec motors and F35/F40 transmissions (and some F23, don't want to get yelled at for leaving them out of the equation ;)). Having the heart of a Goblin available, and the aftermarket stand-alone ECU and harnesses, will still make building a Goblin based (mostly) on the Cobalt viable for quite a while longer.

I agree that looking at other drivetrain options could be a path that some may want to try - there has been some discussion before this post, but no updates on the progress of those projects. I know you were successful in the supercharged V6 experiment you performed and proved it fits within the available engine bay space in the Goblin. The next revision of the Goblin may want to use the Cruze as the donor platform, if the same basic donor parts - subframe, suspension, electrical, steering - can be adapted into the frame. Seems like the logical next step in evolution.

The other goodies, like suspension, will be a big step in the capabilities of a Goblin if these are in the works. We have bounced some ideas around between us and your consulting with Lonny can only mean good things are in store. Maybe DF will beat me to the punch on an upgraded rear suspension before I get the chance to start working on my Goblin again (the house move will be later this year than I thought - my build is on the back burner). Can't wait to see what upgrades are coming! :D
 

k.rollin

Goblin Guru
I think that an LFX powered car would be pretty cool. That said, I imagine the easiest path to an increased donor population would be to go after vehicles built on the same platform (e.g., Ion, HHR, Astra), bit I don't know.
 

Ark :D

Goblin Guru
Adapting the HHR into the (supported) kit would be a logical first step. Having an official path to an out-of-the-box automatic turbo would be cool.
 

Ross

Goblin Guru
35099


Logan Straeter
Ls4 swap begins, will be mated to a f23 trans it bolts up to them from cavalier. Right back frame rails will need to be notched. Working on a flywheel clutch combo. And will have to run a remote electric water pump for engine. Will let y’all know everything needed once it’s finished!

17 Comments

Kyle David
Yesssssssssss

Seven Low
It was only a matter of time before some 1 did it i cant wait. What Frame # are you?

Logan Straeter
Seven Low 130

Seven Low
Are you doing a build thread on it? really want to watch the progress.

Logan Straeter
Seven Low nah but will post pictures and specs when done will start this winter. Wanna enjoy rest of summer with it

Aaron Michael
This is cool. I’d really like to see how this ends up and what the performance is like

Logan Straeter
Aaron Michael mainly for fun cause a ls is a ls not really gonna race it

Dan Clancy
F23 gonna go boom

Rick Gollwitzer
Dan Clancy that’s what I feel like can a f23 hold that ???

Brandon Sparks
F23 can hold some power. Don't count it out. I launch my cobalt at 5200 rpms on 32lbs of boost

Dan Clancy
Brandon Sparks unless you are 2 stepping you aren’t launching at 32psi but it’s doable.

Logan Straeter
Rick Gollwitzer I’m sure it can handle a simple hci 5.3 shouldn’t be over 450hp
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
It's not the HP that kills transmissions, it's the torque and where it's made in the RPM band. Based on using an identical transmission; a well boosted 2.0 can make 400+ ft lbs around 4500 RPM. A healthy LS can make that same torque around 2200 RPM. The peak torque occurring at the lower RPM is where gears see the torque for a (relatively) longer time and have a higher chance of failing.
 
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Scott #321

Well-Known Member
Very cool I can't wait to see the end results and what you think of the drivability compared to the ecotec power plant.
 
As much as I love the goblin's current platform I think an unbeatable version would be something that's more universal. Essentially something front engine that could take anything from a LS/LFX/LT/Hemi/Coyote engine with plenty of room to toss any transmission you could think of behind it. After that it would just be generic 4 link you'd put what ever manufacturer rear end you want. Think of it as something that started out looking like these Vette karts you see but where the frame rails are just straight and you'd just need to get what ever motor mounts you needed for your specific engine. trans cross-members are very easy to adapt to what you need. Ultimately you'd need a custom length driveshaft and what ever rear end you went with. You could start small with just LS/Coyote engines and a couple transmissions and go from there. Those engines and transmissions aren't going anywhere any time soon. With the engine and trans mounts being a lot more generic you'd be able to set the engine more forward or rearward if you needed to balance weight as well. You'd also be able to get away from a lot of these wiring nuisances I think. I'm sure I'm not the first person to suggest this though.
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
Isn’t that a Bruton Stalker? Or most of the factory 5 cars or other v8 kit car that you don’t use the body work on. I considered going that route.
 
Isn’t that a Bruton Stalker? Or most of the factory 5 cars or other v8 kit car that you don’t use the body work on. I considered going that route.
The F5 kits are next level and will take a lot of different combos, but they are multiple times more expensive. Think of that ammount of compatibility, but simplified down to goblin level. More along the lines of something like how an Exocet is setup except without needing a specific donor like a cobalt or miata.
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
I’m not sure that the F5 kits are that much more expensive. When I was looking at it, I don’t remember it being that much more expensive especially if you don’t get their body parts.
 
I’m not sure that the F5 kits are that much more expensive. When I was looking at it, I don’t remember it being that much more expensive especially if you don’t get their body parts.
If you're talking about the roadster base it it's still $20k by the time you get independent rear suspension and a few odds and ends. There's a 100% chance we get a F5 kit if I ever sell our gobin. Just hard to start at $20k+ before you've even got an engine. It would be worth it if you wanted something that refined though.
 

Dale E

Well-Known Member
No Goblin builder has ever been constrained to using the Cobalt as a donor for engine/transmission go bits. You can use a donor or pick and pull, Amazon, E bay, local parts stores for any of your other essentials as brakes, pedal assemblies, hubs, wheels, tires, seats, as many builder has already done. Did any builder really need many dollar seats, when the donor had seats that were thrown away or sold? You could have built a seat from scratch even. And, yes, I know the donor seat doesn't hold you well if you are auto crossing or racing, and doesn't look as cool!!

It is going to be a Goblin when you are finished, but your stories at the car shows and gas stations will be modified to what you used to build it, not just it's a Cobalt donor.

At any time during the history of the Goblin, someone could have ventured into the unknown. Many forum talks about doing it, but no one stepped up to the plate and swung the deal.

Other car builders have done their chassis from scratch and suspension pieces.

Since you have to have a good foundation (for anything you do), the DFGoblin kit provides that. What you design and build over, on, in that foundation is and has been up to the individual (that's why every Goblin is different as is any car you own and put a sticker on the dashboard hey it's yours). Some have added side pods for cooling items. Some use different places for mounting the intercoolers. Some ran the coolant tubes in the tunnel. So, even though you've all had the same foundational chassis/base, you individually have varied design ideas and initiated them to your liking.

No difference in using a different engine/transmission package.

And as far as front/mid front drive configurations, as I've said before -- do it!! It can be done. Sharpen up your fabrication skills and go for it!

As far as the LS4, well, it's been done before in other cars and there are already parts available from folks who have done it, which are for sale to you or I. IE: motor mounts, clutch packages, even the starter mounts, since the LS4 starter was mounted to the bellhousing. It's all out there - homework time!

The Goblin is a good/great foundation and a good means of daily transportation, and more fun twisting about a winding country road. Not to shabby at autocross/racing too!

I'm happy to be associated with the Goblin family in a small way. Thank you for allowing me in! I'm also in the Corvette, Lotus, and sevens (Stalker V6 & Birkin S3) families.

Just thoughts once again from the non-builder amongst you!
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
As much as I love the goblin's current platform I think an unbeatable version would be something that's more universal. Essentially something front engine that could take anything from a LS/LFX/LT/Hemi/Coyote engine with plenty of room to toss any transmission you could think of behind it. After that it would just be generic 4 link you'd put what ever manufacturer rear end you want. Think of it as something that started out looking like these Vette karts you see but where the frame rails are just straight and you'd just need to get what ever motor mounts you needed for your specific engine. trans cross-members are very easy to adapt to what you need. Ultimately you'd need a custom length driveshaft and what ever rear end you went with. You could start small with just LS/Coyote engines and a couple transmissions and go from there. Those engines and transmissions aren't going anywhere any time soon. With the engine and trans mounts being a lot more generic you'd be able to set the engine more forward or rearward if you needed to balance weight as well. You'd also be able to get away from a lot of these wiring nuisances I think. I'm sure I'm not the first person to suggest this though.
Give Shell Valley a call, they have several different kits that use any number of front engine/longitudinal transmission platforms that are comparable in price to a 'well equipped' Goblin kit.

I'm not certain about your discussion post, are you asking for DF to put together a front engine kit? DF has a niche product that fits their business model for an inexpensive and easy to build kit from a common single donor car. The kit numbers are quickly reaching the 500 mark and the Goblin has been successful in terms of sales numbers.

Designing, prototyping, and developing a marketable new kit car platform is a major investment. There are already so many other manufacturers in this segment of the kit car market that DF would have to compete with and not certain this front engine platform could be as successful as the Goblin.
 
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Give Shell Valley a call, they have several different kits that use any number of front engine/longitudinal transmission platforms that are comparable in price to a 'well equipped' Goblin kit.

I'm not certain about your discussion post, are you asking for DF to put together a front engine kit? DF has a niche product that fits their business model for an inexpensive and easy to build kit from a common single donor car. The kit numbers are quickly reaching the 500 mark and the Goblin has been successful in terms of sales numbers.

Designing, prototyping, and developing a marketable new kit car platform is a major investment. There are already so many other manufacturers in this segment of the kit car market that DF would have to compete with and not certain this front engine platform could be as successful as the Goblin.
Nothing more than just throwing ideas out ideas since most of us are aware that DF Kit Car are actively looking into another platform. It's no surprise that the cobalt donor supply dwindles as Goblin popularity increases at a faster and faster rate. I love our goblin and it's simplicity and was more or less just tossing out another candidate for the future platform. It's becoming more rare to see ANYTHING in a manual, much less affordable. My mindset is that these LS/LT engines are a dime a dozen and you can find them anywhere. There's a near endless supply and variety of transmission options for them. Something that fits a powertrain that's been the same since basically the 70s would give DFK the same consistency they have with coming from a single model donor like the Cobalt. I've seen companies like Shell Valley and Factory 5 and what they offer. They are kits that are meant to be another version of existing cars instead of a stripped down rocket ship like what they Goblin is. Again, none of this is to say what we currently have is anything less than awesome. I just thought we were here tossing out ideas for what we thought would be an awesome next gen goblin.
 

Sluggonaut

Goblin Guru
If you know the backstory of the Goblin/company, you understand the product. From what's been shared on the next version so far, it will be as unique and fun as the current product. LS/LT power plants in anything on four wheels isn't exactly unique or different at this point. I get that you can throw one in anything that didn't come with one originally and it's probably faster, but it's just another LS swap.
 
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