Are smaller or larger wheels better for track and auto cross

AnthonyWP

Member
I plan on running a mostly track setup for my future goblin, since now is mostly saving for it I’ve been looking at stuff like wheels and wings to satiate myself. I sad thinking of running staggered with 245 in the back and 205 in the front. Would larger rear wheels be faster, would all 245s be faster?
(This thread is just for rim size and rubber width)
 

AnthonyWP

Member
Edit : I also plan on doing stuff like sealing the under floor and Adding a diffuser if that matters at all
 

JBINTX

Goblin Guru
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
I think some of the links Lonny posted discussed it, at least somewhere there was a discussion of tire width and heat time.

I don't know that there will be a definite answer to your question. I think it depends on to many variables. And this isn't like a Mustang that has a real large sample size.
 

OptimizePrime

Goblin Guru
I think some of the links Lonny posted discussed it, at least somewhere there was a discussion of tire width and heat time.
 

Waterdriver

Goblin Guru
I thought this used to be a sticky always appearing at the top of this section.
 

ATMironov

Well-Known Member
Yeah, read through those posits above.
I really dislike staggered setups as you can’t rotate tires.
you get a ton more life out of a set of you can rotate all 4 corners.
 

k.rollin

Goblin Guru
Yeah, read through those posits above.
I really dislike staggered setups as you can’t rotate tires.
you get a ton more life out of a set of you can rotate all 4 corners.
Well, a lot of these tires have directional tread patterns, so even if you're running a square setup you can only rotate fore and aft on the same side of the vehicle unless you plan to dismount and remount the tires.

-Someone running a square setup with directional tires
 

Ross

Goblin Guru
I've ran thru 2 sets of tires on a square setup. I can wear out the rears a lot faster than the fronts, but rotating them can balance that out.

Today I took my car out to break in the Hoosier A7s. I tried to get them up to 180F, by driving on a twisty road to the lake. I did not succeed. Even driving hard, there is too many sections over 40mph that cool the tires off. Lonny warned me that too wide of tires would not allow the tires to get up to their normal operating temperatures, and he is right, these tires are not at the right temperatures. I am only going to use these at autocross races, but even there, it will take me 3 laps to get them up to temperature.

Now I am leaning towards a staggered setup.
With a driver in the Goblin, you have around 600 lbs on the front, 1100 pounds on the rear. Plus the rear has the punishment from my right foot.
By running smaller width tires on the front, you will put more heat into them. Same with smaller diameter, more heat.
I'm not sure how much smaller of tires to put on the front to get the rears and fronts up to the correct temperatures, but I know that my 275mm wide tires are too wide for street driving.

Here are some interesting videos to show you heat on tires.
Inside & outside tire temps:
Accident at the end:
Tire lockup video:
 

Rttoys

Goblin Guru
Well, a lot of these tires have directional tread patterns, so even if you're running a square setup you can only rotate fore and aft on the same side of the vehicle unless you plan to dismount and remount the tires.

-Someone running a square setup with directional tires
There‘s a number of tires out there that are not directional anymore, there’s an outer and inner side of the tire. So they have to go on the wheel a certain direction, but not rotational.
 

AnthonyWP

Member
I've ran thru 2 sets of tires on a square setup. I can wear out the rears a lot faster than the fronts, but rotating them can balance that out.

Today I took my car out to break in the Hoosier A7s. I tried to get them up to 180F, by driving on a twisty road to the lake. I did not succeed. Even driving hard, there is too many sections over 40mph that cool the tires off. Lonny warned me that too wide of tires would not allow the tires to get up to their normal operating temperatures, and he is right, these tires are not at the right temperatures. I am only going to use these at autocross races, but even there, it will take me 3 laps to get them up to temperature.

Now I am leaning towards a staggered setup.
With a driver in the Goblin, you have around 600 lbs on the front, 1100 pounds on the rear. Plus the rear has the punishment from my right foot.
By running smaller width tires on the front, you will put more heat into them. Same with smaller diameter, more heat.
I'm not sure how much smaller of tires to put on the front to get the rears and fronts up to the correct temperatures, but I know that my 275mm wide tires are too wide for street driving.

Here are some interesting videos to show you heat on tires.
Inside & outside tire temps:
Accident at the end:
Tire lockup video:
Thanks my big worry with running staggered was tire life but someone mentioned they can’t rotate them anyways because their directional, seems like I’ll go with staggered for more rear rubber on the gas, and less front rubber for the apex
 

ATMironov

Well-Known Member
Thanks my big worry with running staggered was tire life but someone mentioned they can’t rotate them anyways because their directional, seems like I’ll go with staggered for more rear rubber on the gas, and less front rubber for the apex
Nitto NT01s are a great 100TW tire, relatively inexpensive, last forever, not directional, and have reasonable size selection. They get my vote every time.
 

Ross

Goblin Guru
Nitto NT01s are a great 100TW tire, relatively inexpensive, last forever, not directional, and have reasonable size selection. They get my vote every time.
I ran them the first year. They were a lot of fun, but I like the R888R better. It is 100TW, but without the stiff sidewall that a drag tire has, as the R888R are autocross tires. Both tires will make you smile, so you can't go wrong!
 

Lonny

Administrator
Staff member
Performance tires have rubber formulas that react totally different than daily driver tires. For daily drivers, tire companies spend millions to develop rubber formulas that tend to maintain the same grip level from cold to hot and with dry and wet conditions.

The goal is different for performance tires.
Performance tires are designed to have an insane grip after hitting a temperature range. To take advantage of that grip you will need to study the specs of the performance tire you will be using and find a way to obtain and maintain the temperature window they recommend.

If you can't get the tires up to temperature they are too big.

If your rear tires are wearing faster than your front tires you probably don't need to rotate your tires, you likely need smaller front tires or larger rear tires.

If your tire sizes are correctly sized they will all wear somewhat evenly front to rear and you will not need to rotate them.

Testing tire and wheel combinations are very expensive. In the long run, it is cheaper to start with a smaller tire and wheel combination and then go bigger if needed.

If the front is sticking to the road and the rear is not, make changes to the rear to make it better. When you finally get the rear better go back to the front. Never compromise one end or the other to get balance.

There is no setup that is perfect for a daily driver that will give you great track performance. On the street, tires tend to stand up straight. On the track, when the tires get up to temperature, they will be seeing aggressive side loads. This requires you to make changes to your Goblin's setup such as adding more camber and much stiffer suspension settings.

I highly recommend building a second Goblin, one for track use and one for the street. Look at all of the time and money you will save.
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
I guess short of something like Deals Gap, "warm" tires are probably not achievable on the street and wider is probably better? I know this is a very general statement.
 

Lonny

Administrator
Staff member
I guess short of something like Deals Gap, "warm" tires are probably not achievable on the street and wider is probably better? I know this is a very general statement.
This may be true for street tires but cold performance tires have compromised grip and going bigger makes them have even more trouble getting warm.
 

Ark :D

Goblin Guru
Perhaps I'm just a filthy casual (I don't autocross), but I got my tires used on a set of Mustang wheels I liked. The rears are Hankook Ventus V12 Evo's (275, 18in) and the fronts are Ohtsu FP8000's (255, 18in). They're fairly well worn but I didn't want to invest in tires until I'm sure my alignment, camber, toe, etc. are all good. Even worn pretty well, I've never lost traction yet, and I'm not easy on the pedal. Beginner's luck I guess.
 

Dale E

Well-Known Member
For street: 15, 16, 17, 18 wheels with 225 or 245 tires is all that's needed. 15 and 16 are more proportional for looks (my opinion).

For autocross and track: 15, 16, 17(?) wheels with 245 to 275 tires. I like a square set, but you might find that a staggered set better for this venue. (?) It's your bank account for experimenting. It's your preference on looks and choices of wheel and tires. limits are bolt patterns and availability of size.

My Stalker did perfectly fine with a square set, 245 size for doing FTD's. I'm at around 1750 pounds and front heavy. I did go to the same tire as @JBINTX AR 10x15 the last year, but it was not necessary to maintain a great feel or times. Although it made the margin of FTD a bit more. I ran/run a 500 spring front with 250 rear.

When my sons began driving I was on 285 front and 175 rear with Falken Azena 615 tires. 225x15. I told the boys, when you beat the Zo6 I will begin upgrades. But first you have to learn the car and control it.

My Lotus Europa (mid engine) is on 175,13 (right try to find replacements) Has 115 springs front and 75 rear at 1500 pound car. That was right for it in 1971. Autocross dedicated those wouldn't work competitively, but again, my son was within 2 seconds of the Stalker. Go figure!!

Now I understand the younger folks desire for bigger - wider, but please don't carry it to extremes.

Big tire companies and car manufactures have spent billions on designing, engineering, development and research. Lotus, Toyota Mr2, Porsche 914 though Cayman, Acura NSX, some other French cars, plus the high end folks Lamborghini, Ferrari, Audi and beyond.

Lonny has given you valuable information with references. Lonny probably recommended

Another thing is just going to a higher grip tire doesn't necessarily get you to where you think you want to be. You have to have the correct (or near correct) suspension setup. It all works together. You pick a spring, but forget the tire is also a spring -- so did you pick the right combination?

@ Justin Reed -- probably has the most experience in track focused setting -- what is his advise?
Others have some autocross experience now -- what is their advise?

At the meet ups we've had, there are skinny tires, wide tires different wheel sizes. All seemed to do okay on the spirited drives. Maybe the pace was to slow? I know, speed limits enforced - a good thing. Street driving is not for racer type driving anyway.

Just opinion from an outsider looking in!!

Dale

These tires are on my Stalker and are three years old now. They have a few autocross runs, drives in the Georgia, Carolina, Tennessee roads and tail of the dragon. They have been to 3 seven/Goblin meetups.

Toe is 1/16 - 1/8, camber .5ish, 20 pounds street and 24 - 26 pounds autocross. I don't know how you all Goblin folks are wearing out tires so quickly! Just an old guy still trying to learn!
 

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