Rauq's Twincharged LSJ in SC - #240 - GOBZILA

mike_sno

Goblin Guru
In that case I don't think you need to be worried about having enough fuel injector. The only reason you'd set your base pressure that low is to ensure the injectors can meter out a small enough flow for the engine to idle well (which isn't a huge concern with injectors smaller than 80#). I would be inclined to think the the stock in-tank regulator in the deadheaded setup is more incapable of making more than mid-50psi WOT than the pump.
Not quite sure if I understand what you mean. You think the stock pump is strong enough? I saw it already dropping to the mid 50s. @Ross has I believe the Stock LSJ pump, which is a different part number as the LAP pump I have and saw under WOT 58psi.

I am sure I can make it work with the stock pump and no fuel pressure regulator, but I think it makes the tune easier if I take that variable out of the equation.

I've read generally that when tables are maxed out, they continue calculating in some method, but I don't generally trust that.
That´s good, but even in that case I think it would be better having a horizontal line in the table.
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
Not quite sure if I understand what you mean. You think the stock pump is strong enough? I saw it already dropping to the mid 50s. @Ross has I believe the Stock LSJ pump, which is a different part number as the LAP pump I have and saw under WOT 58psi.
I hear that but I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. It's possible that's accounted for to some extent in the stock tune. As far as I know even stage 3 LSJ setups making over 250whp don't typically include fuel pump upgrades. I ran my turbo at low 20psi with the engine seeing at least mid-20psi of boost on a stock LSJ fuel pump (which I still have and don't need anymore).

I am sure I can make it work with the stock pump and no fuel pressure regulator, but I think it makes the tune easier if I take that variable out of the equation.


That´s good, but even in that case I think it would be better having a horizontal line in the table.
Agreed on both points.
 

Sluggonaut

Goblin Guru
I hear that but I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. It's possible that's accounted for to some extent in the stock tune. As far as I know even stage 3 LSJ setups making over 250whp don't typically include fuel pump upgrades. I ran my turbo at low 20psi with the engine seeing at least mid-20psi of boost on a stock LSJ fuel pump (which I still have and don't need anymore).
I didn't want to derail this thread further, but this is where my hand goes up to ask a question. I've been running a K04 LSJ on E85 since my initial build and, to my knowledge, have a completely stock fuel system. I have no idle or driveability issues, but I'm not sure what to log to make sure my fuel system is sufficient.

What should I be looking at in HP Tuners, either in my tune or through logging, to see if I need to address the fuel system?
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
Injector duty cycle less than about 85-90% at maximum. Narrowband o2 voltage at about 800 mV or higher when WOT (at least when running gas, not sure what e85 does to these numbers). Wideband AFR should maintain whatever AFR you are tuned for at WOT. Does the LSJ give an actual fuel pump pressure measurement, if so does it maintain?
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
Injector duty cycle will tell you if you're running into fueling limits, but won't where it's coming from if you are (whether it's not enough injector or not enough pump).

I'm not sure that narrowband voltage will tell you anything except that you're not near stoich at WOT, which you definitely shouldn't be. But it can't tell you the difference between 0.8 and 0.85 lambda if that's a resolution you're looking for. O2 sensor voltage shouldn't care about 93/E85 unless your tune doesn't accommodate for it and you can't achieve lambda targets.

The LSJ has no fuel pressure monitoring. My only measurements have been pointing a GoPro at an analog gauge when doing a pull and the fuel pressure rose as I expected it to, so I haven't continued to watch it.

I never found anything super conclusive about the limitations of the stock fuel pump, but the feeling I got based on reading everything out there was that 400whp was about the limit on 93 or 350whp on E85. I hit 65% IDC at 18psi on the turbo and the stock fuel pump but recently upgraded the pump not wanting to find out that I'd gone past its limits when I turn the boost up, not because I thought I was close to them.
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
Injector duty cycle less than about 85-90% at maximum. Narrowband o2 voltage at about 800 mV or higher when WOT (at least when running gas, not sure what e85 does to these numbers). Wideband AFR should maintain whatever AFR you are tuned for at WOT. Does the LSJ give an actual fuel pump pressure measurement, if so does it maintain?
Just giving a list of things that could indicate problems. Of course, the best way to check fuel pump is to monitor fuel pressure even if that means video of a mechanical gauge.
 

mike_sno

Goblin Guru
The easiest thing is go to autozone and rent a fuel pressure gauge and drive. Otherwise I think you will first see that power enrichment is not achieving the target under wot high boost and high rpm. Wide band necessary.
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
Anyone tried the fender brackets both ways and found a meaningful difference side to side? I installed them both ways and threw the wheel back on and couldn't hardly tell a difference, although I did eat dinner between test fits. Front of the car is to the left in the picture below and the L/R brackets are mirror images of each other.

46668
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
Gridlife Carolinas at CMP is a wrap! I drove the car onto the trailer, so I count that as a win. The car is definitely a better performer than I am a driver. It's not very fast when it runs out of gas, however.

I spun coming out of T14 early in the first session. I blame an attempt to exit in 2nd on a slow lap versus 3rd when I'd picked up pace, cold tires, and a boost controller that was accidentally set to make 25psi on the turbo vs 18psi where I thought I'd set it. The spin was in no way shape or form my fault (is that at all believable? lol)

Second session was great. I got a little more comfortable approaching grip limits. The boost controller kept boost where I expected it, making 18psi on the turbo. I describe boost in that way because the engine still sees in excess of 22psi, just a limitation of the P12 ECM. More on that later.

Third session saw more improvements. I took T10 the way I'd been working up my confidence to do, and in my excitement and increased speed, saw a little lockup coming into T11 and ended up in the grass. After getting checked over in the hot pits, came back out to subsequently run out of gas going through T12. I immediately knew what'd happened. I started the track day with about 3/4 tank on the gauge and put a couple gallons in it after the second session to bring it back up to something a little above 1/3 tank. I thought I'd be safe, but running out was probably a combination of naivety and a less-than-completely-accurate fuel gauge. Decent chance the float arm is less ideally bent now after I put a fuel pump in it.

My fuel setup is basically all stock OEM/DF plus a Racetronix 340lph pump in the stock bucket. The bucket should function the same as with the original pump, as the new pump is identical dimensionally apart from being a little taller. The only modification I made to the bucket was at the top to get it to fit into the original fuel line and to give the electrical connector some space. I run a boost reference fuel pressure regulator after the fuel rail with a return to the stock point on the fuel hat. I am extremely satisfied with the functionality of the fuel system as I wasn't able to refire the engine even when sitting still (aside from perhaps some tweaking of the float arm, but putting gas in the thing is probably easier and more effective). This tells me the tank was bone dry and that the bucket kept fuel at the pump even despite that. There may be other setups that retain the stock bucket's seal that closes the bucket intake it's uncovered, but this validates my research insearching for a pump that would retain the bucket's OEM functionality. I don't think a hydramat or a surge tank would have gotten me meaningfully further around the track.

By the end of my last session, it was mid-80°s out, and I was seeing IAT1's of about 110° (after the turbo and A2A) and IAT2's of abut 140° (after the supercharger and A2W). I'm happy with that.

Last but not least, the Goblin got a bunch of attention in the paddock, even amidst actual race cars. But what was the most fun of all was the kids checking out the car. I always invite people to sit in my car, and parents were always cautioning their kids to be careful and not get things dirty... nah, man, let the kids climb in there, step on the seats, it's all good. Normally, cars revving up to just make noise is annoying, but when people see kids in the Goblin banging limiter, it's incredibly entertaining and heartwarming. And they always find the air horn button... :D

Videos are here:
 

OptimizePrime

Goblin Guru
Hey man you had fun, learned some stuff, and both you and the car came back in one piece - sounds like a good day to me! On the straights you could tell she's quick.

I could never quite get 11 through 13 smooth, the speed carried into 11 with the weight transfer between the turns just seemed to turn my front tires into mush and I was skating everywhere (I blame the person who did the alignment... me). You can take 8 through 10 flat out if you hug the curb on 10 - just have your life insurance updated if you hit it.

I yeeted myself off T2 into T3. It's a humbling experience 10/ 10
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
Yeah I never felt great about my execution of T11-13, but I have come to terms with my preferred balance of performance and aggression- aka I'm a wimp and I'm ok with it. I was ok with my line and speed through T10 once and only once, and immediately followed that up by the lockup and off at T11 lol. In my mind I was working up to taking T10 even smoother and faster in subsequent laps, but you can see how that worked out.

It's such a fun and rewarding and confusing experience to be on track with such a variety of cars, in something I built myself, that is probably quicker out the hole and better braking than most other cars, and leaving time in the actual turns themselves because of the limitations of the driver and not the car. The only thing I can blame the car for is a lack of top end, but then again, I think that's the least fun part of the performance driving experience, and I'm 100% cool with that.
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
I picked up a Saab 9-3 recently for a daily now that I regularly transport a carseat. Definitely not to have a backup motor for the Goblin... but it does have the B207R and an F40. It's pretty fun and fits exactly what I was looking for in a beater.

In addition, at Gridlife, I heard from a couple folks asking about the Goblin, "you should put a 6 speed in it."

I suppose, now that I've driven an F23, F35, and F40, albeit with wildly different power setups, I can offer an opinion grounded in experience.

The F23 is the best.

The F35 was in my donor and in my Goblin with a pulley on the supercharger, so figure ~250whp. I drove it on the stock clutch and flywheel in the Cobalt and with a ZZP aluminum lightweight flywheel and Stage 3 Southbend clutch in the Goblin, and with a Cobalt shifter in both. It never showed any issues, no grinding or weird shift locks, but it never seemed eager to go into gear, and the RPM drop on the 1-2 shift took the fun out of putting around town. 4.05 ratio and G85 LSD.

The F23 has only had the ZZP flywheel + Southbend clutch and the optional DF shifter in the Goblin. I love it. The gear spread is perfect, the shifts are crisp and mechanical, and it's done great at Road Atlanta and Carolina Motorsports Park. 3.84 ratio and OBX LSD.

The F40 is still on its original clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel, with an OTTP short throw shifter. I don't fault the trans for the shifter being a bit more vague than the DF shifter + F23 combo in the Goblin even despite shorter and straighter shifter cables. The gearing is nice, but it doesn't make much of a difference to be in 4th or 5th between 35-50 mph or 5th or 6th above 45 mph. The worst part, though, is the heavy dual mass flywheel. I've not done any LSJ tuning for rev hang and I'm not sure if the B207R tuning encourages rev hang, but the revs just don't come down. I realize it's unfair to compare to ZZP's lightweight flywheel, but even compared to the original LSJ clutch/flywheel or other manuals I've driven (LS1, LS7, N55, C5 T56, GTI, BRZ, FiST, various Miatas), not only do they not come down, it feels harsh when the clutch and input shaft are more than a couple hundred RPMs off on shifts. An F40 dual mass flywheel reportedly weighs over 3x ZZP's lightweight F35 flywheel. Still, it's enjoyable for a stock daily 4 door car. This is with the 3.76 final drive.

Last but not least... a wannabe-nerd graph of relative accelerations. If you accept that RPM x gear ratio is a valid comparison of relative accelerations, then this should work... I think. Right? Take three hypothetical engines with equal and flat torque curves. If one has a longer gear ratio than the other two, and one is at a lower RPM than the other two, theoretically the longer gear ratios and the lower RPM motors should accelerate slower, at least until a gear shift. The below graph is shifting at 7000rpms.


46830


One of the main takeaways is, the F23 and F40 are basically the same trans until 100mph and through gears 1-3. It's only above 100 that the F40 would pull harder than the F23 by basically splitting the F23's 4th gear in half. Based on this, I would've been a little faster on track by virtue of shorter gearing above 100mph, but is that worth it to me? Not on a mph/$ basis... I will add in the above chart, the percent acceleration comparisons are calculated without a shift if it's near the starting speed. So the 60-100 comparison is made starting in 3rd for all transmissions even though the F35 can do 70 in 2nd gear, and the 100-140 is calculated starting in 4th even though the F35 can do 109 in 3rd.

Additionally, in top gear and at 70mph, the F35 turns 2671rpm, the F40 turns 2517rpm, and the F23 turns 2496rpm.
 
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