Turbo LNF methanol injected

Amack1970

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, I have a extended, full cage turbo df goblin. Love the hell out of the car. It's been my daily for months since it was finished. I live in Az and so far have commuted in temps as low as 39 degrees and as hot as 115 in the summer. I can't seem to keep my intake temps cold. For example on my way home tonight. The temp was in the low 60's. I was goofing around in the car. Not really hard, but the intake temps were running around 108 or so. Seems to hot for me on such a cold day. I'm not thrilled with the stock cooling system on the goblin. The heat exchanger gets saturated my the radiator heat, and the intake chiller above the valve cover gets saturated by the motor. So I've thought about a couple things. Increasing the coolant capacity by adding a reservoir, or adding a couple more small radiators in line before the coolant runs up to the intake chiller. Only issue there is not alot of room. What about methanol/water injection? I know very little about methanol, but I hear it cools the intake and can clean the intake as its burnt. Anyways looking to do something soon before the heat comes back. Let me know if any of you have modified your intake cooling system, or are running methanol.
Thanks
Anthony
 

George

Goblin Guru
I run water injection. Water will remove twice as many BTU for volume as methanol. Also have two nozzles spraying on heat exchanger.

Brad
 

Briann1177

Goblin Guru
I agree 1000% on the stock setup. It leaves a lot to be desired to put it nicely. I have zero experience with charge cooling other than what Ive learned with my build, but I don't think adding capacity will help you any. i think about the only thing it will do is slow down the rate that the temps get to their peak. Kind of like heating up a small pot of water versus a bigger pot.

I thought about methanol to stop the carbon buildup on the valves but abandoned the idea. There's not much room for a decently sized tank and it's also too much of a pain in the ass to carry fluid around and fill it up. I'm lazy like that. I just want want to drive and not worry about something else. You might not have a choice though with the summer AZ heat.

I was going to go with the Snow Performance kit. There are a lot of options available. I still might go that route if I can find a setup that would work well. Keep us posted if you go that way.
 

Amack1970

Well-Known Member
I run water injection. Water will remove twice as many BTU for volume as methanol. Also have two nozzles spraying on heat exchanger.

Brad
What does your water set up look like? Did you buy a water kit, or build something yourself?
 

Amack1970

Well-Known Member
I agree 1000% on the stock setup. It leaves a lot to be desired to put it nicely. I have zero experience with charge cooling other than what Ive learned with my build, but I don't think adding capacity will help you any. i think about the only thing it will do is slow down the rate that the temps get to their peak. Kind of like heating up a small pot of water versus a bigger pot.

I thought about methanol to stop the carbon buildup on the valves but abandoned the idea. There's not much room for a decently sized tank and it's also too much of a pain in the ass to carry fluid around and fill it up. I'm lazy like that. I just want want to drive and not worry about something else. You might not have a choice though with the summer AZ heat.

I was going to go with the Snow Performance kit. There are a lot of options available. I still might go that route if I can find a setup that would work well. Keep us posted if you go that way.
I've seen the snow kit. Also looked at the AEM kit. I'm also the type that wants to turn the key and go anywhere and not worry about a e85 gas station etc, but I need to cool down the car somehow.
 

George

Goblin Guru
My tank is 5 liter. With all 3 nozzles in use tank will last for a tank and half of fuel. The tank mounts behind the right seat.

Brad
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Anthony, even though we are blessed with decent weather here in AZ, we do have to deal with the 6 months of summer heat that is detrimental to IATs on our turbocharged rides. Justin's air-to-air intercooler is definitely sized to handle the big HP of his Goblin. Here in the desert you can never have too much cooling, as we know.

Granted, you already have your car built and making some mods to gain better cooling may not be right for you. An increase in the heat exchanger capacity with more surface area and moving it to a different location, out from behind the radiator, should help. Another option is to add the NACA ducts if you plan to keep the heat exchanger in its current location, but not sure if you want to cut holes in your hood. Another thing to consider is the flow of air in the front of the car. The open 'floor' under the radiator area, in front of the forward firewall, does not promote good air flow coming through the radiator or heat exchanger, plus contributes to front end lift. Adding a 'floor' to this are can help, as exit air flowing out the sides of the car is better than trying to flow out the bottom. These are just my thoughts based on the 'standard' cooling provided by DF.

My plan is to go big and have redundant cooling to get IATs at least to ambient temps. I have posted some of this in my build log, but this thread seems to be good place to put it all together and share with those who may have the same need for over the top charge air cooling. The plan is to run the turbo outlet into a 2.5 inch air-to-air intercooler that feeds into a 3 inch air-to-water intercooler then into the engine intake. The air-to-air intercooler (what I am calling my precooler) is a 12X9X2.5 inch core that will have a 10inch cooling fan. The air-to-water intercooler is a 11X9X4.5 inch core that will be cooled by dual KZ750 radiator heat exchangers with 7 inch fans and additional water spray cooling. I am building sidepods to house the heat exchangers and water spray system. I am also looking at a Snow (or similar) intake injection system, but have not committed to purchasing one yet.

The thought is the precooler will remove some of the charge air heat, which will be variable with the ambient air temperature, especially here in AZ. The air-to-water intercooler, being sized for a 500+ HP application, should be able to remove the remaining heat to get the IAT to at least ambient and hope to be able to bring it below ambient with the evaporative cooling from the water spray system. I did a quick thermal analysis to determine the dual KZ750 radiators should be adequate for the mass of the intercooler. I plan to monitor the charge air temps at the turbo outlet and at the engine intake to see what the actual temperature delta will be. All of this will be a tight fit and the fusebox next to the engine will need to be relocated, probably up front near the BCM and battery. The plumbing for the charge air will be a challenge to route and keeping the AZ heat out of it, after going through all of the intercooling, will require some insulation - not going to look very pretty, but will be functional.

let me know if you need someone to bounce ideas off of, as I am just a short drive away. Besides, I still have not seen your car in person yet. :)
 

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George

Goblin Guru
Here are some test results I did a few years back with my SAAB 900 turbo. It had a front mounted air to air intercooler with Aquamist water injection after the inter cooler. Outside air temp 77F, boost 26psi. Temp coming from turbo 262F,
temp after intercooler 125F. Temp in intake manifold 77F.
We also installed a few systems on Pontiac V6's with the Eaton supercharger. What we found there was if the car was making 16psi before it would make 13psi after installing the water injection. The reason for the pressure drop was increase in air density. The car performed much better. On a turbocharged car the boost does not drop because the waste gate just closes up to maintain boost providing even more air and power.
Methanol will cool some but it also adds and oxygenated fuel which help provide good power. If you go with a straight
methanol use a fuel injector for better atomization which will make better power. The water injection nozzles do not atomize the fuel for best combustion. Water injection uses a larger droplet to provide the best cooling.

Brad
 

OptimizePrime

Goblin Guru
If you go with a straight methanol use a fuel injector for better atomization which will make better power. The water injection nozzles do not atomize the fuel for best combustion. Water injection uses a larger droplet to provide the best cooling.

Brad
If one were to use windshield washer fluid for convenience purposes, they would use a fuel injector?
 

George

Goblin Guru
No, only if you run straight methanol. I just use distilled water. Since it is my fair weather car.

Brad
 

Briann1177

Goblin Guru
How would one monitor the air temperature after it's been cooled off by the water/methanol spray? I wouldn't think that you would be able to use the stock TMAP sensor since you'd need to inject the mixture right at or just past where the sensor goes into the throttle body tube.
 

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Anthony's (and Andy's and myself) problem is the very high ambient temperatures in the desert. We commonly see 115 degrees and more over a 3 month stretch during the summer months, with 100+ degrees almost every day for another 3 months of the year. The benefits of adding methanol or water injection are clearly understood and I have nothing against using it as a 'bonus' to cool IATs. I am looking at one myself. But what happens if it doesn't work or you do not fluid to put into the tank? Fluids evaporate very quickly in the desert and running dry would not be a good thing. That is the reason for my narrative to have a highly capable passive intercooler system that can remove most of the heat from the charge air reliably by itself and then add the 'bonus' of the active intake injection system. I am not trying to slight anyone with this response, but turbocharged (and supercharged) engines require as much cooling as possible when you live here in Phoenix, you cannot ever have too much. :cool:
 

George

Goblin Guru
You would use the water injection after you had finished you tune with the system you are making. the water would just improve that tune not change it so if the water failed no damage should occur. If you base you tune on the water it could cause issues. The Aquamist system have provision to send a signal to lower boost if it tuns out of water, if water flow is blocked or if a line breaks.

Brad
 

George

Goblin Guru
How would one monitor the air temperature after it's been cooled off by the water/methanol spray? I wouldn't think that you would be able to use the stock TMAP sensor since you'd need to inject the mixture right at or just past where the sensor goes into the throttle body tube.
I inject just after the intercooler and about 6" to 12" before throttle plate. If you want to use water to the max you can put one nozzle in each intake runner, but you will not be able to measure temp drop.

Brad
 

Indy Lonnie

Well-Known Member
I run the NACA duct kit offered by DF. My IAT1 and IAT2 temps run within 15 degrees of each other. After a hard run it will settle back to within 15 degrees in just a minute or two. It is a very tight fit and works great. I think my plumbing is very clean too and fits underneath the rear fiberglass.
Here is my install: NACA duct install
And plumbing: Plumbing
IMG_4467.JPG
 
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