Wheel and tire advice

Brocker

Member
Build nearing completion. Need to order wheels and tires for my tc goblin. Confused.

Tire Rack would NOT help. My tire man is not sure either. I'm thinking of copying Justin Reed of Justin Reed Racing because my Goblin is destined for the track (and occasional road use). I want a square set up for tire rotation ease. Justin Reed runs Jegs 15X10s with 5.5 backspacing. His tires are Hoosier slicks 245 45 15. What road tire would fit these rims well which would also be OK for a wet track?

I just like to have fun at the track and am not that competitive. My donor goblin is probably about 300 HP as it is. My tire fellow thinks the wheels may be too much for the power. Suggestions for wheel and tire combos please.
 

OptimizePrime

Goblin Guru
The tire calc site mentioned above is what you want to use. Some of us use custom spacers to get the lug pattern / spacing we need to fit the wheels/tires we want, others get the hubs redrilled. I liked the flexibility of the spacers.

I wouldn't go with anything less than a 285x10 on the rear for racing > Use a solid performance compound (ex r888r's) > Warm them up @ 16-18psi and boost ramp and you'll be fine (especially at 300). 285's up front are overkill though.
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
First of all, what is your bolt pattern? The 5x110 Cobalt pattern is pretty uncommon so that limits wheel selection. You can also have DF or a local machine shop drill your hubs and rotors for something like a 5x114.3 that is more common, or run hub adapters, or get custom drilled bolt pattern wheels.

For tire selection, if you want wet AND dry track coverage, you're probably looking at something like a Yokohama AD08 (200TW, widest 15" is 205) or a Toyo RA1 (100TW, widest 15" is 225). If you have two sets of wheels + tires then you could run Hoosier Wets on one of them and whatever you wanted on the other.

What's your motivation to stick to a 15" wheel? Tire selection is a little different for something like a 17" wheel. For example, you can get a 275 in the Toyo on a 17 and a 255 in the Yok on a 17.

I wouldn't go with anything less than a 285x10 on the rear for racing
Respectfully disagree, I think at our weight levels it's better to be able to get more heat into a smaller tire.

I want a square set up for tire rotation ease.
Strongly agree, I think a 245 square setup is good for your application.
 

ATMironov

Well-Known Member
245s on 10” wheels is a bad idea.
245 are the smallest tire you can put on a 9” wheel.

and as far as good wet/dry combo track tire there isn’t one especially if your talking about using 100 or less tread ware.
Nitto NT01 with full tread depth do ok in the wet, but the tread doesn’t stay full for long.
 

OptimizePrime

Goblin Guru
Respectfully disagree, I think at our weight levels it's better to be able to get more heat into a smaller tire.
To your point, the weight makes it such that it's tough to actually heat up some performance compounds (and keep them warm). The width helps with this until the heat comes. If he's track plus spirited road use it's not worth the risk to stay small with the hopes that the tires are warm enough to keep you off the wall. The way the k04 peaks a 255 and smaller in the rear is a recipe for skating off the road (255 upfront works noice)
 

ATMironov

Well-Known Member
My vote for dry tires are the NT01s.
They are relatively inexpensive, and last forever. You can drive them until they cord and the don’t heat cycle out.
The Hoosier R7 will be faster, but heat cycle out quickly and are probably 2x as much.
Toyo R888R would be my second choice.
I don’t have a recommendation for wet tires.
I was planning on buying two sets of rims. I want one for dry track and another for wet/street.
 

Rauq

Goblin Guru
I was planning on buying two sets of rims. I want one for dry track and another for wet/street.
I generally agree with @ATMironov, then. Something 100TW like the NT01 or R888R for dry track, then a 200TW for wet/street. For what it's worth, Tirerack rates the Yokohama AD08 R as the best 200TW in the wet (although not by a huge margin).

Still have to address what wheels will fit your bolt pattern and the available tire sizes.
 

Rttoys

Goblin Guru
I would suggest a little wider than 245s. I run 245/40-17 r888r and they are just not quite enough for autocross. On the street, they are bad ass, but I can easily push them to the limit at autocross and still be slower than others with wider tires (or slicks).

I do love the r888r’s though. They have great feedback and controllable, even when losing grip. I’m only pushing roughly 270hp though.

Here’s a recent video at an autocross practice where you can see and hear the tires begging for mercy.

 

Jm12

Active Member
245 is too narrow for a 10" wheel. For reference, I run 245s on 8" wheels for autoX and have considered going to 255s (yes, that's pushing it). I just posted about the difficulties of finding soft compound tires that will fit a 15x10- there aren't many. 8" wheels open things up a bit.
 

Ross

Goblin Guru
Using the 5x114.3 wheel pattern, there are a lot of 1994-04 Mustang Cobra Wheels. I run 17X10.5, and like the Toyo Proxes R888R and the Nitto NT01. I tried the Toyo R1R, and honestly, I prefer 100TW tires over the 200TW. I can run 275 to 315mm tires, and the R1Rs were slipping around too much for me. Even the R888Rs slide around when pushed, but much more predictable. Good for autocross and the street, as they are the same diameter as the stock Cobalt tires, so the gear ratios are stock.

I'm looking forward to playing with my new 15x10 SSR wheels and Hoosier A7 track tires. The smaller diameter will gear down the car, allow the tires to heat up quicker, and save 11 pounds on each corner. This is great for the track, but like you said, harder to find treaded street tires for. The R888R tires only go to 235mm wide in the 15" wheel sizes.

Here I am pushing the R888R 17"x 275mm, both front and rear tires.
 
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Rttoys

Goblin Guru
love the sound of that supercharger! Really impressed with your skill.
Thanks. :cool: I had better runs, but I posted that one because there was some flaws in the run that shows how well the tires hold up without just spinning out.

The charger sounds great right in your ear. :DInstant power too.
 

Brocker

Member
I bought the bigger hubs from Adam when buying the kit. Still undecided....
Using the 5x114.3 wheel pattern, there are a lot of 1994-04 Mustang Cobra Wheels. I run 17X10, and like the Toyo Proxes R888R and the Nitto NT01. I tried the Toyo R1R, and honestly, I prefer 100TW tires over the 200TW. I can run 275 to 315mm tires, and the R1Rs were slipping around too much for me. Even the R888Rs slide around when pushed, but much more predictable. Good for autocross and the street, as they are the same diameter as the stock Cobalt tires, so the gear ratios are stock.

I'm looking forward to playing with my new 15x10 SSR wheels and Hoosier A7 track tires. The smaller diameter will gear down the car, allow the tires to heat up quicker, and save 11 pounds on each corner. This is great for the track, but like you said, harder to find treaded street tires for. The R888R tires only go to 235mm wide in the 15" wheel sizes.

Here I am pushing the R888R 17"x 275mm, both front and rear tires.
What is your backspacing on the 17X10s? Maybe I'll just get them for starters.
 

Ross

Goblin Guru
Here is my calculation I used to purchase the wheels & spacers.
Using Mustang Cobra wheels, I just calculated the spacer needed. Then any of the many Cobra wheels will work.
After they are installed, with 275mm wide tires, I don't really need 39mm spacers, more like 15mm spacers. With the 315mm tires, I need them.
On the fronts, I am now using Lonny's hubs, which are drilled to 5x114.3 pattern, with no spacer at all. The left wheel can rub the lower A arm when cornering, the right wheel clears the A arms.
 

Lonny

Administrator
Staff member
The article below is about tires for a Lotus Elise. It has a 40/60 weight balance which is similar to our Goblins.
It makes a few great points about tire sizes.


TIRE SELECTION IS WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD!
MAY 8, 2018

Changing tires is something we must contemplate at some point. Sportscars generally require this sooner than later. Care must be taken or you can ruin the beautiful handling of your Lotus. Tire selection is a very complex issue and not one that can be fully addressed in a short article. Since your tire is what holds your car to the road, I thought it would be a good issue to discuss.
Lotus ride & handling engineers work closely with tire manufacturers to develop the tires found on their cars. The Elise with a Sport pack came with Yokohama AO48 tires. They are a special tire compound (LTS) developed by Yokohoma for Lotus. Car manufacturers buy thousands of tires so tire manufacturers are often willing to create special tires for the OEs. This allows those crafty OE engineers to ‘fine-tune’ their cars.
The Elise came with two different suspensions: Standard and Sport that demanded different tires. The Standard (there is no such thing as the ‘Touring’ suspension) suspension featured narrower front wheels with 175 front and 225 rear Yokohama AD07 tires. The Sport packaged cars came with more aggressively tuned dampers with wider(front) forged wheels and stickier Yoko A048 r-compound tires in a 195 front and 225 rear. These sizes and tires work as intended and few alternatives exist that deliver the same overall performance. So does this mean we should only use factory-approved tires? No, you can veer from their spec tire but you need to go in with your eyes wide open.
What are the key areas that must be considered during tire selection? Here is an abbreviated list - in no particular order:
1. Size
2. Compound
3. Brand/model
4. Vehicle weight
5. Availability

Tire size is something that many people immediately begin experimenting with. Oftentimes, a tire is available in a multitude of sizes and car owners believe they might try wider tires to create more grip. This can work, but many times, it may deliver the opposite effect as the tires don’t get into their operating temperature range due to the low weight of our cars.
Lotus is lightweight, which narrows (pun intended) our tire options. Lighter cars demand softer compound tires. What works well on a 3300lb Corvette/BMW/Porsche will be hard as a rock on a Lotus. You may have noticed that our street tires are considered track tires by those heavy-weight sportscars. So your favorite aggressive street tire on your last GT3 may not work on your new Exige. Of course, if you can go with even softer tires, wider widths are possible but the only tires that are softer tend to be non-street friendly tires.
OE tire size is usually dictated by the weight distribution of a car. Since modern Lotus are mid-engine cars, they have more weight in the rear which means wider tires are needed in the rear and narrower in the front. On a car, like a BMW or Miata, with 50/50 weight distribution, you will often see owners running the same tires front to rear. This will not work on our Lotus with a 40/60 weight balance. Note the Elise/Exige has 195/225 tire size split or a 175/225.
grripp.jpg

The rabbit hole of tire knowledge sucks you in deeper when you start to consider tire temperatures. Tires are designed to operate in a certain temperature range. You have heard about accidents that occurred due to ‘cold’ tires. Tires gain temperature due to friction as they are driven. It is critical that they get within their operating range to work effectively. If they are outside of this range, poor results can be expected. Wider tires may not be able to achieve the temps required if all other variables, like car weight, remain the same. The net result is a tire that grips even less than a narrower tire.
 

Lonny

Administrator
Staff member
It looks like Hoosier A7s are very good racing tires. If you decide to get a set, they have a few recommendations for getting them ready for racing.

A7/R7 Care and Safety Guidelines
The R7 and A7 have been developed to improve wear and consistency without any sacrifice of performance. In many cases, the performance will even improve over previous models. The new tire models are an evolution in the continuing effort to provide the best tire for racers.

TIRE BREAK-IN PROCEDURE
Proper break-in will not affect initial performance but will increase the competitive life of the tire. The procedure can be broken down into phases.
1st phase: The initial run
2nd phase: The length of the time the tire is allowed to “cure”
THE INITIAL RUN HEAT CYCLE
A7/R7 Roadrace The first laps for the tire are critical for setting up the durability and competitive life. The first session should consist of no more than 10-15 minutes of running. The early part of the session should be run at an easy pace, with the speed gradually increased until the end of the session. The final lap should be run at the fastest possible speed. The intent is to achieve maximum tire temp on the last lap. At this point the car should be brought in and the tires allowed to cool at a normal rate. During the initial run-in process, the inflation pressure should be 3-5 psi higher than you would normally use. The best progression would have the driver taking 4-7 laps to accomplish this break-in. Each lap should be approximately 7-10 seconds a lap faster than the previous lap. The goal is to have the tire temp as high as possible on the last lap without “shocking” the tire during the warm up laps. In essence, no wheelspin, late braking, or sliding. The last lap should be at, or very close, the maximum possible.
A7 Autocross
For autocrossing, the A7 does not need the same break in procedure as the R7. The A7 needs a minimal scuff-in session before the first autocross run. This “session” can comprise of simply driving around the event site at minimal speeds on the A7 set of tires. By scrubbing off the newness of the tread (no or minimal shininess remaining) prior to your first competitive run, the A7 tires will be more consistent in handling, grip and responsiveness on the first run. If this is not completed, running on un-scuffed A7 tires on your first run may result in the tires not gripping properly, or feeling like they “skate” over the course surface. You are welcome to run 3 - 5 psi higher when scuffing in a new set of A7’s, but be sure to reset them to the correct operating pressures before your first autocross run. As you compile autocross runs on your new A7’s, they should become more consistent in run times.
“Cure” Time
After completing the initial run phase, the length of time the tire is allowed to set is possibly more important. The barest minimum for this process to be beneficial is 24 hours. (Not “the next day”). Any less than this is a waste of time. The best situation would allow a week before using the tire again. Proper tire management is a difficult process. To accomplish this almost always requires a second set of wheels. The payoff is greatly increased competitive tire life. Following the recommended break-in procedure will require a lot of planning to make it work. The benefits to doing it right include greatly increased tire life as well as consistent performance and durability under stress. Please make an effort to educate your team on the importance of this. It can save you a lot of money.
Tire Temperature Recommendations
For best performance the expected temperature range will vary from track to track. Generally, optimum traction will be generated when the pit lane temps show 180-200 degrees for the R7 in Roadrace applications, and 110-140 degrees for the A7 in an Autocross application. To get accurate hot tire temperatures, you should use a needle probe. An IR sensor surface temperature device will read cold and this may cause you to miss your hot target temperatures.
Chassis Setup Recommendations
For optimum performance the Hoosier P-Metric radial tires require about 3 degrees of negative camber. There will be a trade off in maximum performance to maximize wear. Generally, 1/2 degrees less than optimum will result in the best compromise for wear and speed. Less than 2.5 degrees negative can result in excessive wear on the outer shoulder junction. Higher pressures are needed when the vehicle has limited negative camber. The Hoosier tires typically offer better performance with spring/shock rates higher than previous brands you may have run.
TIRE PRESSURE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR COMPETITION
Traditionally, Hoosier tires have often required higher pressures than other brands. Hoosier recommends a starting minimum cold pressure of 26 psi on all DOT radials.
Roadrace/Track Applications

VEHICLE SIZERECOMMENDED HOT PRESSURECOLD PRESSURE
1800-2200 LBS.32-34+26-28
2200-2600 LBS.34-36+26-28
2600-3000 LBS.36-40+26-30
OVER 3000 LBS.40-42+30-34
Please contact a Hoosier Tire representative for cold pressure settings for vehicles over 3000 LBS.
+Higher pressures will improve the performance capability but will require a more sensitive feel to take advantage of the increase.

Air Pressures
One characteristic of new tires is the feeling of lower traction initially (when inflation pressures are correct). It is important to resist lowering the pressure to attempt to eliminate this feeling. Dropping the pressure too far may improve the “feel” of the tire however it will also lower the performance and increase the wear rate. Never drop hot tire pressures back down to cold pressure set points. Tires will be severely under inflated as a result of dropping hot pressures to cold pressure set points which will lead to increased tread wear and possible tire separation. Hot pressures will gradually return to the cold starting pressure as the tires cool off. For every 10 degrees F increase in air temperature, the tire pressure will gain approximately .7 psi. As Air Temperatures increase throughout the day, so will the Air Pressures in your tires. It is critical to maintain or manage your HOT air pressures throughout the day. Also, keeping the tires in the shade or out of direct sunlight will assist with consistent air pressure settings. Keep in mind that using compressed air (with moisture) and nitrogen (little to no moisture), will offer quite different air pressure increases. Compressed air will cause a faster increase of HOT air pressures while Nitrogen air pressure will cause a slower increase of operating HOT pressures. Using Nitrogen, cold air pressure settings need to be started at 2-3 psi higher compared to compressed air pressure settings. Also, depending on the morning air temperatures (50-60 degrees), both compressed air and Nitrogen require higher cold pressure settings to achieve the HOT pressures sooner. Using Nitrogen will offer more consistent air pressure readings, repeatable tire performance and improved overall results.
Banked Oval / Road Courses
Hoosier DOT radials are not intended for high banked super speedway or high speed and banked tracks like Watkins Glen International, however on these type of course configurations with the proper settings the tires can be used. In these situations, the loaded side tires should be elevated five (5) psi cold and hot above the normal road course pressure recommendations. Camber settings should be reduced to or below -2.0 degrees.
Autocross Applications
For autocross applications, your starting pressure for the first run should be within 1-2 psi of the recommended hot pressures shown above. After the first run and each subsequent run, keep resetting the pressures back to your target hot pressures before taking the next run. This way your tires are at the proper pressure during the bulk of every run you take. The above chart is a general recommendation which is intended for a standard configuration vehicle (i.e. front engine, rear wheel drive). Factors which can radically affect your pressure set up would include front wheel drive, independent rear suspension, rear engine, McPherson vs. control arm front suspension.
Front Wheel Drive
Vehicles configured with FWD are probably the most difficult application for a tire setup. The combination of steering, braking and accelerating on the front tires, combined with higher corner weights for the front positions produce a harsh environment for the tire. These vehicles will typically have a strut type of suspension which limits camber gain. All these factors result in conditions which require the tire do more work than a simple chart for pressures can accommodate. In severe cases front tire pressures for FWD vehicles can run in the 48-52 psi (hot) range. In cases where the tire size is limited to a relatively small tire, the required pressure can run even higher. The front to rear pressure differential on FWD cars can have extreme ranges of inflation, depending on the driver preference, suspension tuning, and track configuration
Rear Engine Vehicles
When matching a race tire to your rear engine vehicle, it is very critical in matching the OE (Original Equipment) rear tire diameter or size to the race tire. Having the same diameter or greater race tire will offer a higher load carrying capacity. If a shorter diameter tire is used, the race tire will overheat, overload and eventually fail. The same or taller diameter race tire will also offer a higher spring rated tire which will help absorb the shock of forward acceleration, provide higher cornering grip and less wheel spin during corner exit under power. More air pressure (2-3 psi) should also be used in the rear tires with this vehicle configuration.
Aero Package
Cold starting pressure needs to be considered setting at a higher pressure when using an aftermarket aero package. An aero package will produce more down force and will damage race tires if air pressure is not increased.
Independent Rear Suspension
With IRS and proper geometry up front, tire pressures can be reduced from the recommendations listed above. When there is adequate camber gain and good roll control, the Hoosier radial tire will perform very well at the reduced air pressure. This results in a bigger “sweet spot” and easier control at the limit. When tuning at reduced pressures use the following formula to determine the minimum safe pressure: Divide the total vehicle weight, including fuel and driver, by 100 to arrive at the minimum safe pressure. Example: Your car weighs 2750 lbs. as raced. The minimum safe (cold) pressure is 27.5 psi. Extreme care should be taken when tuning at reduced pressure. Tire damage can occur that is not visible to external inspection. Vehicles equipped with independent rear suspension (IRS) have a distinct advantage over non-IRS cars when using radial tires. This is true for two reasons. First, it is possible to setup some amount of static negative camber on IRS suspensions, if needed. Second, the IRS geometry can provide the proper camber gain to achieve the dynamic camber needed for a radial tire. This is a great benefit because it then becomes possible to better address front tire grip when the rear of the car can be optimized closer to the tire’s potential.
Considerations
These tires are molded to their designed tread depth. They do not require shaving to be prepared for competition use. Due to extremely light construction, Hoosier tires have a much lower polar moment of inertia than other radial tires. This translates to a very low rotational mass, which is a good thing for performance applications. The downside to this feature is that the tires do not resist “spikes” in braking force as well as a heavier tire might. As a result, there is a tendency for drivers to “flat spot” a tire the first time really getting to the limit. Vehicles equipped with ABS will benefit from its use. If you do not use ABS it is recommended that you make an effort to minimize stabbing the brakes until you have some experience with the feel of the tire under hard braking. The light construction also provides less protection from impact damage and punctures. Off course excursions or running over debris on the track will likely result in tire damage. Once some wear has occurred it may be desirable to flip the tire on the wheel in order to even out the wear and maximize tire life.
Wheel Widths
Wheel width dramatically affects the wear and performance of the Hoosier P-Metric radial tires. There is about a one inch window of optimum width. The trick is to figure out that window. A good rule of thumb to use for determining proper width is to use the tread width of the tire. Measure the tread width. Plus or minus 1/2 inch from the tread dimension will indicate the proper rim sizing. It is possible to use narrower wheels, but at a sacrifice to shoulder wear and cornering power.
“Measured” rim vs. “Recommended” rim
On our website tire specifications, you will see two columns of information regarding rim dimensions. In most cases, the “measured rim” and the “recommended rim” will be the same. However, in the case of DOT tires, the information may appear contradictory. The reason for the differences lies in the Department of Transportation requirements for publishing tire dimensions on any tire that carries a DOT certification. Each tire size has a specific rim that must be used when taking measurements for tire comparison. This is intended to allow consumers a consistent way to compare tire sizes between brands. With respect to the Hoosier P-Metric line, the recommended rim size will typically be wider than the DOT standardized wheel. The fact that a tire will “fit” on a rim is not an indication that it will work effectively in that condition. Radial tires are extremely sensitive to wheel widths. The performance characteristics of the tire can change significantly within the recommended range of application. Mounting a tire on a rim that is outside of the recommendation is not a good idea.
Driving Style/Braking
Driving style has also shown to significantly effect tire wear. Drivers who achieve their speed by “tossing” the car run the risk of increased tire wear. Radial tires develop their highest cornering power at relatively low slip angles. Smooth driving yields faster lap times and better tire wear. Drivers need to develop a sensitivity for the limits under braking. This takes time and practice. Failure to apply this will result in flatspotted tires. Particular care needs to be taken when selecting brake pad compounds. It is possible to have a pad that is too aggressive. This will make it very difficult to develop good braking feel for threshold braking.
Rain Tires
The Hoosier D.O.T. Radial tires are extremely good in dry conditions, however they do not make very good wet weather tires. Having dedicated rain tires available will be necessary for your team to be properly prepared. Hoosier Racing Tire also offers a D.O.T. Radial Wet tire. This tire has a molded tread of symmetrical design. Check the product catalog for the available sizes. The compound for these tires is intended for wet weather use only. When using rain tires, always increase your starting cold air pressure 2-4 psi over your dry tire starting pressures.
Speed Rating
The A7/R7 tire model carries a W Speed Rating of 168 mph.
SERVICE LIFE
Service Life for Race Tires: Old tires can fail in use, causing loss of vehicle control and personal injury. Environmental conditions like temperature extremes, exposure to sunlight, electric arc, solvents, automotive fluids, and atmospheric pollutants accelerate the aging process. Hoosier Racing Tire strongly recommends that new (sticker) tires should be put in service within 2 years of date of purchase. Used (scuffed) tires have a shorter service life than new (sticker) tires. Poor storage and infrequent use accelerate the aging process.
 
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