V1 Redlines - 2008 SS TC Goblin build in Mississippi

[IDRVSLO]

Some simple ducts will get it clean air. Plenty of cars(Subaru for instance) run top mount ICs that sit above the exhaust and on the engine.

 

[redline]

that is true, in fact I have one or I should say my son does and the very first thing you replace is that intercooler.

 

[IDRVSLO]

I don't disagree....I have had a few TMIC vehicles....Mazdaspeed 3 and 6, STI and a Legacy GT. I only swapped out the TMIC on two of the to go big turbo. The design works though!

 

[redline]

I can not explain how well this thing is running on the E47. we are still giving it more timing and we may just go with Meth injection to cure the high IAT's seems like the easiest solution.

 

[Brian74]

I question the efficiency of the supplied liquid to air cooler and heat exchanger; wondering if either are big enough to be efficient. Have you considered adding a coolant reservoir and running dry (or regular) ice in it at the strip to try and get the IAT2 temps down?

 

[redline]

yes, I have a reservoir and I have added water wetter which really helped but still the temps are way too high. it needs a FMIC or maybe even a larger heat exchanger for the air to water??

 

[Waterdriver]

yes, I have a reservoir and I have added water wetter which really helped but still the temps are way too high. it needs a FMIC or maybe even a larger heat exchanger for the air to water??

Maybe add a water temp sender for intercooler coolant readings. That way you can see if it is the coolant that is getting too hot, needing a bigger heatexchanger/radiator. If the coolant temps stay low then that would lean you towards needing a larger water to air intercooler to handle all that boost your running.
Google Eddie Hill's LSJ powered Ariel Atom for write up info on his build. (450hp) He utilized 2 qty shifter kart radiators for heatexchangers. 2.5 in. thick, 3 row cores to keep his IAT'S down for road racing.

 

[Brian74]

yes, I have a reservoir and I have added water wetter which really helped but still the temps are way too high. it needs a FMIC or maybe even a larger heat exchanger for the air to water??

Well FMIC is obviously not an option. I did upgrade to a larger 25-row HE, resorvoir, 3/4” lines and a varimax pump in hopes it will do better. Trying to decide whether I also need to go bigger on the IC or add even another HE. My car wont be completed until next year though. What IAT2 temps are you seeing?

 

[Brian74]

Maybe add a water temp sender for intercooler coolant readings. That way you can see if it is the coolant that is getting too hot, needing a bigger heatexchanger/radiator. If the coolant temps stay low then that would lean you towards needing a larger water to air intercooler to handle all that boost your running.
Google Eddie Hill's LSJ powered Ariel Atom for write up info on his build. (450hp) He utilized 2 qty shifter kart radiators for heatexchangers. 2.5 in. thick, 3 row cores to keep his IAT'S down for road racing.

The water temps aren’t nearly as important as the actual intake air temps. The water temp may even read ambient coming into the liquid to air cooler (best case without adding ice to the system) but if the liquid to air cooler isn’t efficiently using that water to cool the intake charge air then nothing will be improved.

There is also a difference between SC cars and TC cars in respect to water cooling the intake charge. I think the best option for the SC cars is just to use a large heat exchanger. With the TC cars it hasn’t yet been determined to what capacity or efficiency these liquid to air coolers work.

 

[Waterdriver]

I agree, IATs are important and I think were kind of saying the same thing.
The intercooler coolant temp would be to indicate what end of intercooling system isn't working efficiently. Heatexchanger or intercooler. Whether a SC or TC.
If the coolant temps remain low and IATs are high, then intercooler is ineffective or undersized.
Difference being with a TC you have the ability to change your intercooler type and size.
Without any coolant temp data to reference from, making a change to the system would just be a guess without all the variables. Getting temps could be as easy as using a thermal temp gun on the HE after/during seeing high IATs.

 

[Brian74]

I agree, IATs are important and I think were kind of saying the same thing.
The intercooler coolant temp would be to indicate what end of intercooling system isn't working efficiently. Heatexchanger or intercooler. Whether a SC or TC.
If the coolant temps remain low and IATs are high, then intercooler is ineffective or undersized.
Difference being with a TC you have the ability to change your intercooler type and size.
Without any coolant temp data to reference from, making a change to the system would just be a guess without all the variables. Getting temps could be as easy as using a thermal temp gun on the HE after/during seeing high IATs.

Infrared sensor would be a viable source for checking water temps. I was just pointing out that the intake charge water cooling demanded by an SC car is much greater than a L to A cooler in a turbo car. The coolant pass through in a liquid to air cooler is happening at a much lower temp than that of the SC roots supercharger and with much less heat exchange going on. This is why SC cars do really well with huge HE’s with lots of airflow (cuinstra’s configuration being a great example)

I’m baffled right now because Rich Rich reported good results with his intercooler HE doing street driving, but redline is seeing these issues under track use. I think one guy even mounted his L to A cooler higher up from the intake manifold to remove conductive heat from the engine. I plan on some track driving that will require high sustained boost levels.

I’ve scoured the Cobalt forums in effort to try and determine what most SS Cobalt turbo owners have seen as normal IAT2 temps but its hard to find much accurate info in between seperating the jackassery of that forum. Kyle at ZZP said heat soak is a common issue on turbo cars with air to air intercoolers, which operate at higher short term efficiency than L to A coolers.I have a few other sources I will have to contact in person but sadly its all going to be theoretical because there are literally zero Ecotec turbo cars running L to A intercoolers besides the Goblin. The key is accepting the disadvantages of this system while still making it as efficient as it can possibly be.

In theory I suspect the supplied L to A cooler will be likely to heat soak under sustained boost, even with an efficient heat exchanger. If a bigger L to A is needed, the options are scarce. I’m also trying to determine if the intake charge water cooling improvements I’ve made will be sufficient cooling for track use given the L to A functions well. I have the feeling they’re overkill. Bottom line is the last thing I want to have to do is grind off powdercoat and re-weld new tabs to make changes later on.

Sorry redline, not trying to hijack your build log with my long-winded rant. I’d love to collaborate with you in the future as you work out your IAT temps and find an efficient solution. I may go just go your current route and keep an E47 tune and a 5 gallon jug (and lots of ice) for track use only and a nice conservatve street tune for daily drives.

 

[Briann1177]

I'm not sure how much this contributes to the overall efficiency, but one of the things I noticed on mine is the very hot outlet pipe that connects the turbo to the intercooler. No matter how I drive, it always gets so hot that you can't touch it for more than a second or so. While I'm sure the amount of heat that 6" or so run of pipe adds to the system is negligible, it's just something I noticed.

On a side note, I have HPT Scanner logs of a stock TC setup that I'd be willing to share with anybody interested.

 

[Brian74]

I'm not sure how much this contributes to the overall efficiency, but one of the things I noticed on mine is the very hot outlet pipe that connects the turbo to the intercooler. No matter how I drive, it always gets so hot that you can't touch it for more than a second or so. While I'm sure the amount of heat that 6" or so run of pipe adds to the system is negligible, it's just something I noticed.

On a side note, I have HPT Scanner logs of a stock TC setup that I'd be willing to share with anybody interested.

If you could capture & post a screenshot of that hp tuners data you speak of with IAT2 temps included, that would be great. Let’s move it out of redline’s build thread though and start a new topic along the lines of turbocharged IAT2 temps. I have the feeling more people will show up there eventually and good discussion will ensue.

 

[redline]

sorry guys I was busy this weekend. I am seeing temps in the 163 range for IAT2. at the same time my IAT (SAE) is 102 and ambient is 97*.
now this is running E47 which as you know runs much cooler than regular 93.

you guys have hit the nail on the head, I am not sure if the inter-cooler is enough even with a larger heat exchanger. I guess all I can do is try a larger exchanger and record the results. If that doesn't work then maybe a front mount located where cuinstra put his heat exchanger??? or make a bracket and stack another air to water exchanger on there?

 

[redline]

 

[redline]

This is what it looked like on 93 instead of the E47

 

[Briann1177]

Can you give us some more info? I'm assuming that's not city driving. That after a track run?

Edit. Just now noticed the 101 MPH. Hopefully those aren't cruising speeds.

 

[redline]

that is me running logs for the tuner. so yes it is cruising around the country side. now i have the cursor on a high point while doing a pull.

 

[redline]

so I lost in the finals at the track last night because they re-glued the track (some big cars had grudge races) while our cars cooled down. after they glued that thing down I could not keep my car in gear (tried it 3 times). I would spin off the line in first and then when it hooked it would pop out of gear?? this happen to anyone else? Car pulls and launches fine on the street, and was launching hard at the track before the glue got relaid?

 

[Lonny]

Do you have a heavy shift knob? You may be launching hard enough that it pulls the shifter out of gear.