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V1 Siemens 80lbs injectors

M
Yeah, they look like cheap knock offs of the cheap Siemens ones. LOL It also says like: FITS Siemens Deka 80... Was just looking for some Siemens 80lbs injectors and came across them.
 
G
Remember your entire tune is based upon accurate injector data, and especially the low speed/idle portions. You can cheat the ve/maf settings to make the linear portion of injector flow "work" at larger throttle settings (assuming the injectors are consistent but doesn't match data), but's not worth the cost savings to get crappy injectors to work in the nonlinear low flow portion.
 
M
Right, that's why I am not going with any cheaper than the Siemens. But I am also not willing paying $400 if Siemens has been worked for so many.

BTW: I changed recently my TB and idling is much better now. BUT now instead of using my own data for the Siemens 60 and later 80s I got a contact from a guy on facebook who seems to be very experienced with LSJs and he gave me his Siemens data for the 60/80s. Which requires a complete new tune. Will see if I get the idling even better with his data.
 
G
Correct injector data shouldn't depend on anything other than the injector itself. It doesn't have anything to do with anything else. Maybe the other data is better, but changing the throttle body doesn't have anything to do with it.
 
M
Gtstorey said:
Correct injector data shouldn't depend on anything other than the injector itself. It doesn't have anything to do with anything else. Maybe the other data is better, but changing the throttle body doesn't have anything to do with it.
Click to expand...
So far the theory.Finding good Siemens Injector Data is like finding gold. Siemens Injectors do not have the data to copy and past into the LSJ ECU. I guess you get what you pay for. I used an excel which i found on the internet, now I am comparing that to the tune from the guy off facebook.
 
Rauq
I bought my Siemens 80# from ZZP and they said all the data I needed was available on the product page. I snooped every forum I could find for injector data, but the best data I found was from comparing to the data in a ZZP-supplied tune that uses the injectors.
 
M
Rauq said:
I bought my Siemens 80# from ZZP and they said all the data I needed was available on the product page. I snooped every forum I could find for injector data, but the best data I found was from comparing to the data in a ZZP-supplied tune that uses the injectors.
Click to expand...
And I may hit you up for the 80lbs data once I have them.
 
Rauq
I'd post the data right now if it were on the computer I'm currently using. If you feel like you're waiting for me then just ping me and I'll dig that computer out. It's still packed away from my last track outing.
 
M
Ross said:
LSJ tune for 80lb Siemens injectors E85, with ZZP Entry Level Turbo swap kit, K04 turbo (Sluggonaut).
Click to expand...
Quite a bit different from anything I have on the 80s data. I also wonder why he has AFR as 14.7 when the tune is for E85. I guess there are a million ways to tune E85 and AFR is just one of them.
 
Sluggonaut
mike_sno said:
Quite a bit different from anything I have on the 80s data. I also wonder why he has AFR as 14.7 when the tune is for E85. I guess there are a million ways to tune E85 and AFR is just one of them.
Click to expand...

Al McClure's comments to me about using AFR over Lambda when I sent him my log file for review:

A lot of time, you'll see people on the internet pounding the keyboards screaming "lambda is more accurate" which is absurd. EVERY wideband sensor is a Lambda sensor. It's only measuring the variance from stoich. It has no idea if you have gas, propane, e85, or methanol, or any combination. The gauge is taking that signal and converting it in to a 0-5v output, which never changes. All that does change, is the conversion factor you use.
Lambda IS more universal in the sense that it is the same for every fuel, and I do think it's worth becoming familiar with it. However, gas-scale AFR is the exact same information, just in a different language. And if the PCM speaks in gas-scale AFR, it would make sense to use the same language for data collection. It's less mental math for me and less room for error.
 
M
Sluggonaut said:
Al McClure's comments to me about using AFR over Lambda when I sent him my log file for review:

A lot of time, you'll see people on the internet pounding the keyboards screaming "lambda is more accurate" which is absurd. EVERY wideband sensor is a Lambda sensor. It's only measuring the variance from stoich. It has no idea if you have gas, propane, e85, or methanol, or any combination. The gauge is taking that signal and converting it in to a 0-5v output, which never changes. All that does change, is the conversion factor you use.
Lambda IS more universal in the sense that it is the same for every fuel, and I do think it's worth becoming familiar with it. However, gas-scale AFR is the exact same information, just in a different language. And if the PCM speaks in gas-scale AFR, it would make sense to use the same language for data collection. It's less mental math for me and less room for error.
Click to expand...

I am familiar with lamda vs AFR. It doesn't really matter to me if you use lamda or AFR. That was not the point of my comment. I personally think lambda has an advantage since the target is standardized no matter what fuel you use. However, our ECU only accepts AFR, so I have to deal with that.

What I was wondering: Your Target AFR in your tune is still 14.7. Mine is 10.4 for E85. If I am not wrong, if you change from E10 to E85 and your car was good tuned on E10 all you need to change is the AFR number in your tune. This would be one way of doing it. If you leave the AFR at 14.7 and change from E10 to E85, you can do that and adjust the MAF sensor, the VE Table,... the end result will be the same, just a different way of doing it. But it makes our tunes not comparable.
 
M
Where AFR sucks is: My AFR gauge still reads stoich at 14.7. I would need to reprogram the AFR controller to show me E85 stoich, which I was so far to lazy too.
 
Rauq
Sluggonaut said:
Al McClure's comments to me about using AFR over Lambda when I sent him my log file for review:

A lot of time, you'll see people on the internet pounding the keyboards screaming "lambda is more accurate" which is absurd. EVERY wideband sensor is a Lambda sensor. It's only measuring the variance from stoich. It has no idea if you have gas, propane, e85, or methanol, or any combination. The gauge is taking that signal and converting it in to a 0-5v output, which never changes. All that does change, is the conversion factor you use.
Lambda IS more universal in the sense that it is the same for every fuel, and I do think it's worth becoming familiar with it. However, gas-scale AFR is the exact same information, just in a different language. And if the PCM speaks in gas-scale AFR, it would make sense to use the same language for data collection. It's less mental math for me and less room for error.
Click to expand...
For clarification plus a question:

The P12 has a parameter for Stoich AFR (pictured below). While troubleshooting with another builder, I wanted to experiment as to whether changing fuels is as simple as changing that setting. It is. I changed it to 10.4 and ended up 29% rich (still had 93 in the tank). The same effect could be accomplished by scaling all the injector settings (or increasing Injector Flow Rate Modifier vs Voltage) or scaling all the airmass/airflow tables. Changing Stoich AFR seems much more straightforward to me.

One thing I didn't test was, if you change the Stoich AFR in the tune, what does it do to the Commanded AFR PID in the scanner? As I recall, that data is reported as gas AFR (with a 14.7 stoich tune) with no option to change it to Lambda or any other scale (except by creating a math parameter). That may have been what Al was getting after.

49701
 
Sluggonaut
mike_sno said:
Where AFR sucks is: My AFR gauge still reads stoich at 14.7. I would need to reprogram the AFR controller to show me E85 stoich, which I was so far to lazy too.
Click to expand...
No, you can leave it as gas stoich. As Al stated, you are just converting a voltage signal to a number using a formula, so it doesn't matter if your gauge shows 9.8 or 14.7, stoich is stoich. As long as you know what it's set to, you should know when you are rich, lean, or okay.

I've always run gas in my cars that had AFR gauges so it's easier on my brain to see it in gas AFR anyway.
 
M
Rauq said:
For clarification plus a question:

The P12 has a parameter for Stoich AFR (pictured below). While troubleshooting with another builder, I wanted to experiment as to whether changing fuels is as simple as changing that setting. It is. I changed it to 10.4 and ended up 29% rich (still had 93 in the tank). The same effect could be accomplished by scaling all the injector settings (or increasing Injector Flow Rate Modifier vs Voltage) or scaling all the airmass/airflow tables. Changing Stoich AFR seems much more straightforward to me.

One thing I didn't test was, if you change the Stoich AFR in the tune, what does it do to the Commanded AFR PID in the scanner? As I recall, that data is reported as gas AFR (with a 14.7 stoich tune) with no option to change it to Lambda or any other scale (except by creating a math parameter). That may have been what Al was getting after.
Click to expand...
Exactly. The Commanded AFR in the Scanner PID changes to what your setting in the ECU is. If you change it to 10.4, like I did. It reads 10.4 in the scanner as well. I can confirm that and at least that makes the tuning,... easier for me.
 
M
Sluggonaut said:
No, you can leave it as gas stoich. As Al stated, you are just converting a voltage signal to a number using a formula, so it doesn't matter if your gauge shows 9.8 or 14.7, stoich is stoich. As long as you know what it's set to, you should know when you are rich, lean, or okay.

I've always run gas in my cars that had AFR gauges so it's easier on my brain to see it in gas AFR anyway.
Click to expand...
We are talking about the same! I left it at GAS 14.7. So it shows me stoich at 14.7, BUT my ECU, Scanner,... all reads ECU stoich at 10.4. Which is the same, I just look at the gauge and know that I am not shooting for 14.7. It makes comparison from the gauge to the scanner data a bit more challenging. But I am using my gauge just for eyeballing that I am not to far off, so that works for me.
 
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