LSJ Oil Pan Replacement

BSinvestments

BSinvestments

Active Member
Well, the motor is out to swap the clutch and transmission and I've fallen into a bunch of while I'm here questions. Cams, valve springs, deletes, but mainly I know it's recommended to swap the oil pan for an LDK pan to help with slosh. But does anyone know if the CBM sheet metal pan fits on a factory subframe, I unfortunately didn't measure with my motor in the car and they aren't sure if it works due to them mainly using it on one-off sand rails. I spoke to them today, it's built to order and I dont want to wait to put this thing back together and then it doesn't fit for some reason.

store.custombuiltmotors.com

CBM MOTORSPORTS 2.0L/2.2L/2.4L ECOTEC FABRICATED ALUMINUM OIL PAN

CBM Motorsports Ecotec oil pans start with a 1/2" 6061 T-6 billet rail and are CNC machined to very tight tolerances. The pans are then formed from .90 3003 H-14 aluminum. This combination provides you with a light weight and very durable oil pan that will remain flat even after repeated...
store.custombuiltmotors.com store.custombuiltmotors.com
 

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Desert Sasqwatch

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Based on the photos on the CBM website: the Cobalt subframe, there is plenty of room to accommodate the side extensions of the CBM oil pan. There is at least 4 inches in the front of the engine and more than 12 inches of space at the rear. Not certain how far below the stock oil pan dimensions this custom pan extends, can't tell from the photos. But the stock oil pan sits nearly level with the bottom of the subframe rail - personally I wouldn't want the oil pan extending below that level.
 
Desert Sasqwatch

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Looks like my LNF oil pan is 4 1/2 inches from top to bottom. Not sure if this is a different dimension for the LSJ oil pan depth?
 
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Ross

Ross

Goblin Guru
You shouldn't have a problem.
38171


The orange line is the closest point to the Cobalt frame, and I can fit 2 fingers in there, so over 1" of space. The other sides have lots of room.
That orange line is on the side of the pan that hasn't expanded, so no issues.
38172
 
F

finazzoty

Well-Known Member
Interesting thread - what is/are the primary benefit(s) of this swap over the stock pan? Is anything else required to perform this swap?
 
C

Chubbs

Well-Known Member
finazzoty said:
Interesting thread - what is/are the primary benefit(s) of this swap over the stock pan? Is anything else required to perform this swap?
Click to expand...

Some have reportedly had problems with oil starvation during high G cornering. All the oil sloshes to one side of the pan, and the oil pickup tube starts to suck air. Engine goes boom. An oil pan with a different baffle system can mitigate the issue, as can an oil accumulator system.

However, as far as I know/have read, the actual racing teams (you know, the guys who would actually know) run the stock oil pans with no problem. So I'm not sure if the oil starvation issue is real, or just something that could happen in theory.
 
Ross

Ross

Goblin Guru
The stock pan has 1 pick up in the oil pan, and no oil trap doors to keep oil at that location.
I had a neighbor who cooked his porsche engine in a long sweeper corner. His porsche was a dedicated race car, that he had rebuilt, and carried on racing... with an oil accumulator. He actually watched his oil pressure gauge durning that corner. Said it would get low near the end of the corner, but never thought it would be a issue. But as his lap times got better, the oil issue became a problem.
 
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Ross

Ross

Goblin Guru
Or add an oil pressure sensor and gauge ... and see if it is an issue for you. Most tracks don't have long sweeper corners.
 
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Chubbs

Well-Known Member
BSinvestments said:
The way I look at it. For a one time cost of $700, is it not worth the added insurance?
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If it gives you peace of mind, you should do it. Plus that pan looks super slick.

I am genuinely curious though....has it ever happened? There are threads about it but in the threads I've found it's just speculation.

In this one a guy gives a warning, but provides no evidence it ever happened. In fact, it seems like it didn't happen at all. Just a "hey, watch for this"

Warning - oil starvation! - Cobalt SS Network

Autocross and Road Racing - Warning - oil starvation! - To autocrossers and trackday junkies. If you are putting high G loads (cornering AND braking) on your SS/TC you may want to upgrade your oil system. I am getting an Accusump Oil Accumilator. You may also look into a trap door oilpan -...
www.cobaltss.net

Here's another thread about it with concerned people, then some others pipe in and say GM races with the stock oil pan with no issues

Upgraded Oil Pan - Cobalt SS Network

2.0L LNF Performance Tech - Upgraded Oil Pan - Does anyone make one for road racing? I am adding slicks to the car, and I am a little nervous about doing this without upgrading the oil pain to something with baffles in it as I have heard it is necessary. Thanks,
www.cobaltss.net

I guess I would be more concerned if I could find a single instance of it ever happening. And even if I did, we would then have one instance out of about 90,000 cars. I guess I just view it as a solution without a problem.

We are pretty hard on our goblins. I run at heartland park, which has a 180deg left hand turn that takes probably 10 seconds to get around. With Bridgestone RE71Rs, I had no issues with oil pressure. Given the location of the pickup, perhaps right hand turns would be a bigger issue. Have other goblin people blown motors?
 
BSinvestments

BSinvestments

Active Member
Chubbs said:
If it gives you peace of mind, you should do it. Plus that pan looks super slick.

I am genuinely curious though....has it ever happened? There are threads about it but in the threads I've found it's just speculation.

In this one a guy gives a warning, but provides no evidence it ever happened. In fact, it seems like it didn't happen at all. Just a "hey, watch for this"

Warning - oil starvation! - Cobalt SS Network

Autocross and Road Racing - Warning - oil starvation! - To autocrossers and trackday junkies. If you are putting high G loads (cornering AND braking) on your SS/TC you may want to upgrade your oil system. I am getting an Accusump Oil Accumilator. You may also look into a trap door oilpan -...
www.cobaltss.net

Here's another thread about it with concerned people, then some others pipe in and say GM races with the stock oil pan with no issues

Upgraded Oil Pan - Cobalt SS Network

2.0L LNF Performance Tech - Upgraded Oil Pan - Does anyone make one for road racing? I am adding slicks to the car, and I am a little nervous about doing this without upgrading the oil pain to something with baffles in it as I have heard it is necessary. Thanks,
www.cobaltss.net

I guess I would be more concerned if I could find a single instance of it ever happening. And even if I did, we would then have one instance out of about 90,000 cars. I guess I just view it as a solution without a problem.

We are pretty hard on our goblins. I run at heartland park, which has a 180deg left hand turn that takes probably 10 seconds to get around. With Bridgestone RE71Rs, I had no issues with oil pressure. Given the location of the pickup, perhaps right hand turns would be a bigger issue. Have other goblin people blown motors?
Click to expand...
I agree with all of this. People talk about it but Im unable to find a hard example as well. I did speak with Justin briefly about this, he's fully dry sump now due to seeing pressure drops. Am I sure ill be going as hard as him, no. But this pan was brought to my attention and it is a nice bit of gear. Id love to have some cams for the same price if it's not necessary. lol
 
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Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
On some engines, oil aeration, especially at high rpm, can be the problem as much as sloshing. This is why you don't want to overfill the oil.
 
C

Chubbs

Well-Known Member
I guess another way of looking at it is a cost/benefit analysis. How much does it cost to rebuild an LNF? Here's some parts from ZZP:

Takeout pistons and rods, full set, $300
zzperformance.com

Take Out LDK/LNF Piston(s) and Rod(s)

These are brand new, never run, take outs from assembled engines. This includes 4 new pistons/rings and rods. They come assembled and ready to drop in. They are a direct drop in replacement for the 07+ LNF (Cobalt/HHR/Sky/Solstice) and '11+LHU (Regal/Verano), but they can be installed in an LSJ...
zzperformance.com zzperformance.com

LNF head : $300
zzperformance.com

LNF Head

Brand new OEM LNF head with valves/springs/retainers. Fits on factory turbo 2.0L - Cobalt SS, HHR SS, Solstice GXP, Sky Redline
zzperformance.com zzperformance.com

Bearings, $35
zzperformance.com

Ecotec 2.0L/2.2L/2.4L Rod Bearings

These are GM OEM rod bearings for your 04+ 2.0, 2.2, and 2.4 liter Ecotec engine.Includes 4 pairs of rod bearings.
zzperformance.com zzperformance.com

Of course there will be many more parts depending on damage, so let's just quadruple it, and say a stock rebuild is $2500. Or, here's a long block that's already built for you and comes with a warranty, $5500. http://www.performanceautowerks.com/catalog/product_info.php/werksracing-lnf-long-block-assembly-p-1930

Now we need a chance of an engine kerploding. I would argue the actual percentage chance is near zero, but let's go big and say you have a 10% chance of blowing a motor on the track due to oil slosh. $700 divided by a 10% chance is $7000. Since $7000 is more than the cost of a rebuild, the math says to take your chances.

Obviously I made some big assumptions here, and it's been a long time since i've done engineering economics. Again, if it's worth your sanity, just get the cool oil pan and dont' worry about it ever again. I would personally buy cams instead, or maybe spend the money on more track days.
 
Desert Sasqwatch

Desert Sasqwatch

Goblin Guru
Justin was seeing oil pressure drops and caused him to go with a dry sump: reason - intermittent oil at the pickup and probably sucking in some air, which manifests as a pressure drop (air is compressible). Some builders may view this information as a good basis to have some insurance built in to avoid the one-off chance this can happen and possibly cause damage.

Know that oil starvation doesn't immediately cause an engine to go boom, it's an accumulative affect where damage from several seconds of no oil starts the process. The bearing experiencing this now has reduced capacity to maintain the mechanical load and increased friction - that becomes worse over time. Repeated oil loss events on bearings then leads to scorch (overheat), spall, and then to the bearing failing.

Granted, the 4 second turns on an auto-x track may never be a problem with reduced/lost oil pressure. But it is apparent from Justin's experience that road racing courses, with long 10's of seconds sweeping turns, it can be (or how about that really fun highway entrance ramp :p) I for one, am going with some insurance and installing an oil accumulator on my LNF. Spending $250 for the accumulator outweighs potentially spending $$$ on a rebuild and parts or a new engine. And if you have the expensive upgraded parts - forged rods, pistons, etc. - it runs into big $$$.

Everyone builds their Goblin to their liking, including add ons like this for peace of mind.
 
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Chubbs

Well-Known Member
A dry sump would be a killer setup. I've seen the oil pan available, but I guess you're on the hook to figure out the rest yourself. Does anyone offer an off-the-shelf dry sump kit?

If I ever have oil pressure problems, I'll be on here immediately warning everyone about it. I just haven't seen it yet.
 
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