V1 Jim McDonald // Extended Track // '09 HHR SS/TC Automatic

[Torchandregdoc]

Cerakote has an extreme high temp offering that many of my suppressors are coated in and are holding up extremely well. I was planning on buying some to try on my exhaust since the high temp spray paints haven't been holding up on my exhaust.

I wasn't sure how much I needed, so I bought the pint. I used less that 50ml, so 1.5oz. I believe the 3 oz tester would be enough for the manifold, turbo, and brake slaves. I shot it with the cheapest, smallest, HF spray gun, .010 tip.

 

[DCMoney]

I wasn't sure how much I needed, so I bought the pint. I used less that 50ml, so 1.5oz. I believe the 3 oz tester would be enough for the manifold, turbo, and brake slaves. I shot it with the cheapest, smallest, HF spray gun, .010 tip.

That's great to hear, I was looking for a reference on how much to buy.

Your results look great!

Thanks for the info!

 

[KSLunsfo]

Decided to try and powder coat the valve cover. There is a company that will do it for $80. I'm not sure if they pull out the plastic "catch can", but if they do, $80 is a screaming price. If they don't, I'm sure the 400 degrees for 10 minutes will remove the plastic and force the external catch can issue. Only downside is they either do gloss black or red. I did mine in Prismatic Black Jack. Its not perfect, but good enough for me.

Everything is looking good!

Optimize Prime (Alex) and myself (possibly others) have been researching external catch can options a bit. Since you have a VC off with the baffling removed, how do the ports pass through those internal plastic baffles? Does the one port not visible in the picture flow through the brown one? The black ones? The biggest complication is the LNFs internal PCV located in the intake manifold. It is my desire at least, to find a way to block that off if possible. I hate how gross my ports are... I'm wondering if it could be as simple as removing the PCV and tapping and plugging that hole inside the manifold. I still need to perform the valve/port cleaning job.

 

[Torchandregdoc]

Everything is looking good!

Optimize Prime (Alex) and myself (possibly others) have been researching external catch can options a bit. Since you have a VC off with the baffling removed, how do the ports pass through those internal plastic baffles? Does the one port not visible in the picture flow through the brown one? The black ones? The biggest complication is the LNFs internal PCV located in the intake manifold. It is my desire at least, to find a way to block that off if possible. I hate how gross my ports are... I'm wondering if it could be as simple as removing the PCV and tapping and plugging that hole inside the manifold. I still need to perform the valve/port cleaning job.

I have done a fair bit of studying to figure the crankcase ventilation out. I started another thread regarding LNF Intake. I am pretty sure I have it figured out, and my thoughts do not line up with the opinions of the cobalt world. With more boost, or worn rings, blow by oil control has to be managed, and I believe if the system is maintained correctly, the factory system should work, mind you, i am a man with a theory, not an experience.

"A man with an experience will never be at the mercy of a man with a theory.". Dad

I have been trying to figure out how to document what I've learned, but pictures and words will be tough for me to do. I will try and do a crude video tonight and put it in the other thread.

 

[Briann1177]

The factory crankcase ventilation system works just fine. The problem is direct injection. The gunked up valves affects a lot more engine models other than just the LNF.

 

[Torchandregdoc]

Everything is looking good!

Optimize Prime (Alex) and myself (possibly others) have been researching external catch can options a bit. Since you have a VC off with the baffling removed, how do the ports pass through those internal plastic baffles? Does the one port not visible in the picture flow through the brown one? The black ones? The biggest complication is the LNFs internal PCV located in the intake manifold. It is my desire at least, to find a way to block that off if possible. I hate how gross my ports are... I'm wondering if it could be as simple as removing the PCV and tapping and plugging that hole inside the manifold. I still need to perform the valve/port cleaning job.

I just put a very crude vid on the other thread. If it doesn't answer your question, let me know.

LNF Intake

 

[KSLunsfo]

The factory crankcase ventilation system works just fine. The problem is direct injection. The gunked up valves affects a lot more engine models other than just the LNF.

Correct. In terms of ventilation and keeping crank case pressure down I'm sure the ventilation system does the job. I'm concerned more with the PCV system specifically which is a direct path (with the check valve in between) between the crank case and intake runners. While the manifold is under a vacuum condition, the engine pulls air from the crank case through the PCV pulling all of the blow by and oil vapors right into the manifold. Under boost the PCV shuts off to prevent boosting your crankcase (no bueno).

Any GDI engine such as the LNF suffers the issue of gunk buildup due to the lack of fuel hitting the back side of the valves keeping them clean over time. However, even a non GDI engine where fuel IS hitting the back of the valves can build up gunk over time, just at a much slower rate compared to GDI.

The PCV is strictly an emissions component intended to run the blow by back into the combustion process instead of to atmosphere. Assuming the other ports of the ventilation system evacuate enough air, the PCV is not needed for keeping crank case pressure down. I have a turbo Eclipse that I removed the PCV from years ago and have had a clean manifold and valves ever since. I'm simply running 2 -10AN lines from the valve cover to catch cans. The car sees around 30 psi virtually every time I drive it.

I just put a very crude vid on the other thread. If it doesn't answer your question, let me know.

Thanks for the video Torch, that does help explain the particular platform at hand. I have yet to see the inside of an ecotec motor in person so it's good to see how it's designed in here. I see those additional pieces in the valve cover is their attempt at retaining as much of the sludge in the crank case as possible.

 

[JBINTX]

The only way the oil is getting into the intake is through the PCV valve, right? So, is an oil catch can at this point the simple answer? Vent the catch can to atmosphere (preferred?)? Or route the outlet from the catch can back into the intake (needed?)?

I have yet to see a definitive answer here.

I had some similar questions in another thread:
https://dfkitcar.com/forum/index.php?threads/oil-separator.1596/

 

[KSLunsfo]

The only way the oil is getting into the intake is through the PCV valve, right? So, is an oil catch can at this point the simple answer? Vent the catch can to atmosphere (preferred?)? Or route the outlet from the catch can back into the intake (needed?)?

The majority of it is from that anyway. Under vacuum the manifold is pulling quite a bit of air, so any vapors get sucked in. It's pretty likely that a small amount also gets pulled into the turbo and intake, but that may be minimal.

Optimal setup in my opinion:
Deleted PCV with the hole plugged.
1 large (-12AN maybe (or multiple smaller ports)) port from the VC to a catch can
It's very important that this port is protected by baffling so you don't end up loosing actual oil over time.
With a vacuum pump pulling through the can
Of course, the vacuum pump is just a small bonus, something like that only comes in if you're making huge power or just struggling to keep the crank case depressurized.

Is this a cheap route? Not remotely... but you will have NOTHING going back into your engine.

 

[Torchandregdoc]

I think, in the case of my tired old lnf, the vacuum would be important. I would be curious how much air is pulled in through the hose that goes from the valve cover to the turbo inlet during high boost.

Are you suggesting a small electric vacuum pump pulling through the catch can? I don't think it would require 2 fittings, it would just require enough to keep the CC negatively pressured during boost.

 

[KSLunsfo]

I think, in the case of my tired old lnf, the vacuum would be important. I would be curious how much air is pulled in through the hose that goes from the valve cover to the turbo inlet during high boost.

Enough to keep crank case pressure down. Since the PCV is shut during boost the only place air can go is back to the turbo and intake pipe. As a test on my eclipse years ago, I put a vacuum gauge on the VC to confirm my setup worked, and it was always at least slightly in vacuum while driving. None of my seals (front main, rear main, camshaft seals) have never leaked.

Are you suggesting a small electric vacuum pump pulling through the catch can? I don't think it would require 2 fittings, it would just require enough to keep the CC negatively pressured during boost.

Yup! It's nothing new, using a vacuum pump for crank case venting has been done for decades I believe. The more old school versions (usually built V8s) are belt driven, but an electric probably makes more sense in an application like ours. And again, this would just be the icing on the cake. Line/s ran to a vented catch can may be sufficient. I will likely end up testing this to be sure. If it doesn't then the 2 options remaining are running a catch can that runs back to the turbo to create the pull on the crank case (still getting a little vapor back to the engine) or a pump keeping it all external. This would only require 1 appropriately sized port/line. But, a second port with just a breather could also be of benefit as you would never pull TOO much vacuum on it if that's a thing.

 

[JBINTX]

What is the procedure for replacing the PCV valve? Does the valve cover have to be removed? Or, is it accessible from the outside? It is an inexpensive item.

 

[KSLunsfo]

I only know the LNF at this point. But it's actually located in the intake manifold between runners 2 and 3, which I'm not particularly a fan of. This makes replacing it or eliminating it much more complicated and involved than on a car where it's external. IF it was still there, a PCV swap on my eclipse would be less than 5 minutes. Anyway, I'm thinking that the PCV could be pulled then the hole could be tapped and plugged using a set screw. I have no idea what the diameter would be at this point but would guess wildly around M16. I THINK this would be the same as removing and plugging the port of an external one.

Jim, sorry we've turned your build thread into a crank case ventilation thread..

 

[JBINTX]

I only know the LNF at this point. But it's actually located in the intake manifold between runners 2 and 3, which I'm not particularly a fan of. This makes replacing it or eliminating it much more complicated and involved than on a car where it's external. IF it was still there, a PCV swap on my eclipse would be less than 5 minutes. Anyway, I'm thinking that the PCV could be pulled then the hole could be tapped and plugged using a set screw. I have no idea what the diameter would be at this point but would guess wildly around M16. I THINK this would be the same as removing and plugging the port of an external one.

Jim, sorry we've turned your build thread into a crank case ventilation thread..

Well that's something new. I have seen several different places on the valve cover from others - maybe different than the LNF. I really have not thought about the PCV until reading a few posts recently. Thanks!
Between all of us, I know we all desire to eliminate oil returning to the intake. This thread has been more in-depth to that issue than any other I recall.

 

[JBINTX]

here?

 

[Ross]

What about adding an intake injector to an LNF just to clean the back of the intake valves?
A methanol/water controller could turn on the upstream injector and as long as you run as small amount of additional fuel, the engine's LTFT (long term fuel trims) will learn, and adjust the ECU up to 20% variance from stock. So no HP Tuners costs required.
You could even hook the additional injector up to your fuel pump, and run it on gasoline, and skip the methanol tank.

 

[KSLunsfo]

here?

No, it's completely internal so no outside line. You see it when looking at the manifold from the engine side where it seals on the cylinder head. The manifold has to be off the engine to see it.

What about adding an intake injector to an LNF just to clean the back of the intake valves?
A methanol/water controller could turn on the upstream injector and as long as you run as small amount of additional fuel, the engine's LTFT (long term fuel trims) will learn, and adjust the ECU up to 20% variance from stock. So no HP Tuners costs required.
You could even hook the additional injector up to your fuel pump, and run it on gasoline, and skip the methanol tank.

That option has ran through my head too, it just seems like it could get complicated then there's always another fuel system to deal with. I know some auto manufacturers do exactly this from the factory. Having fuel hitting the valves makes a big difference on valve build up, but still not perfect.

 

[Briann1177]

I adon't think methanol is as good of a solvent as gasoline either. I also think those systems like the Snow kit only spray under boost making them useless for routine driving.

Bottom line is there is no cure for it. I quit worrying about it and just go have fun with driving. If I have to drop the engine in 50k miles to clean the valves because my horsepower dropped by 10 or whatever amount, then so be it.

 

[KSLunsfo]

Bottom line is there is no cure for it. I quit worrying about it and just go have fun with driving. If I have to drop the engine in 50k miles to clean the valves because my horsepower dropped by 10 or whatever amount, then so be it.

Deleting the PCV is the cure!

 

[Briann1177]

You still have the line connected to the turbo.