Cannot figure out this idle problem

Keckster

Well-Known Member
I'm fairly certain this problem is a tuning issue but I don't know where to start looking. The car will idle great for a while then the idle will slowly begin to climb as if going lean then it'll start really struggling and eventually stall. My tune is currently still very rough and mostly just a calibrated MAF and scaling for the injectors. I'm really getting frustrated chasing this idle and am open to any ideas.

The idleproblems.hpl file idles well till about the 37 second mark then proceeds to stumble (STFT off)
The idleproblem2wstfton.hpl file idles well till about the 2min 40second mark with STFT on but same issue

I'm getting really frustrated as this is the last problem i've had and have been chasing for a while.

Thanks in advanced!
 

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Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
Without picking through your build logs, what are the changes from stock setup?
Probably need to post your tune also.
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
-Forged & Coated JE pistons (9.5:1)
-ZZP forged 4340 connecting rods
-Mahle main bearings
-Clevite rod bearings
-ATI Damper (Overdrive)
-Stage 2 Clutchmasters clutch
-Aluminum flywheel w/ replaceable friction surface
-BradBilt balance shaft delete w/ short chain
-82lb valve springs w/ titanium retainers
-ZZP Stage 2 supercharger cams
-2.7 pulley
-Dual bypass endplate
-ZZP shorty Header
-FIC 870CC Bosch split spray injectors

The tune is very messy and only been calibrating the MAF so far but here it is. I did have a tuner helping me with the base tune but it was tough doing everything remote.
 

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Joebob

Goblin Guru
Super new to this but going to take a stab at it.
  • From you logs you are running very rich but I don't see a wide band to see how much
  • Your MAP pressure seems high for idle but not used to boosed cars i.e NA 2.4 is at 30kpa and you are at 50 kpa (could boos bypass be not fully open?)
  • Your MAF frequency is only 1/2 what a stock airflow/Hz LSJ is. Are you running the stock 3" intake?
  • Your injector curve is more for a 60 lb/hr not the 80lb/hr you state you have. at 58psi fuel pressure they should flow 93 lbs which might be too much for the engine
  • Maybe MAF is scalled down to compensate for oversized injectors to try to fool the computer to inject less but don't see that as the right approach as you will have to fake the VE table next.
  • You have airflow correlation RPM set to 800 which you might have wanted 8000 rpm. maybe this check is happening at failing causing the stall.
  • Are you blipping the throttle or all computer? as when the car starts stalling, the throttle is opened up and the MAP pressure increases as it should, but as the RPMs drop, the MAF speeds up, the injector pulse width increases, but the car records lean.
    • What is your exhause like? Could you be pulling in air to the O2 sensor at low RPM, which is freaking out the computer?
Joe
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
  • From you logs you are running very rich but I don't see a wide band to see how much
I did not have a wideband during these logs as my PLX wideband controller got wet at my last autocross event and died. I did notice the rich running which is a little strange cause when this Tune1.4 files was dialed in it was running essentially spot on with both the wide and narrow band


  • Your MAP pressure seems high for idle but not used to boosed cars i.e NA 2.4 is at 30kpa and you are at 50 kpa (could boos bypass be not fully open?)
I'm not sure what would be considered normal for this engine and mod combo honestly. I went back and looked at some of my first logs when I first got the car running and the MAP is still around 8-9 PSI (55-65kpa) at idle. I'm not complete sure how to go about testing the bypass but I can look into it.

  • Your MAF frequency is only 1/2 what a stock airflow/Hz LSJ is. Are you running the stock 3" intake?
Yes I am running the intake that came with the kit, I did however change out the 45 elbow for a 60 elbow to clear an oil cooler that I had installed. I do have a new MAF on order so maybe it is just old and tired. Will update if it makes any difference. Looking at a log I found on this thread by goblinguys my MAF is higher than even his (stage 2 zzp)

  • Your injector curve is more for a 60 lb/hr not the 80lb/hr you state you have. at 58psi fuel pressure they should flow 93 lbs which might be too much for the engine
  • Maybe MAF is scalled down to compensate for oversized injectors to try to fool the computer to inject less but don't see that as the right approach as you will have to fake the VE table next.
I had a tuner fill in the injector tables for me... I can try and go through and make changes but there is an overwhelming amount of info in the spreadsheet I was provided for the injectors.

  • You have airflow correlation RPM set to 800 which you might have wanted 8000 rpm. maybe this check is happening at failing causing the stall.
Compared to both a stock LSJ and my as found file. The airflow correlation has not been touched on my tunes.

  • Are you blipping the throttle or all computer? as when the car starts stalling, the throttle is opened up and the MAP pressure increases as it should, but as the RPMs drop, the MAF speeds up, the injector pulse width increases, but the car records lean.
    • What is your exhause like? Could you be pulling in air to the O2 sensor at low RPM, which is freaking out the computer?
In the longer of the two logs I did blip the throttle twice while it was idling nicely just to see if it would catch idle nicely as it usually struggles on coastdown. However, I did not touch anything once the poor idle condition started. I let it run it's course to try and catch a clean log of it occuring. My exhuast setup uses a zzp shorty header with wideband in top bung and I had a new bung welded in on the df supplied exhaust just before the first bend for the narrowband. There are no leaks as far as I can tell but I could check again.

Thanks for such a detailed response so quickly!
 

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Keckster

Well-Known Member
Small update, check both the pre SC MAP sensor and the Intake MAP sensor. The intake sensor was coated in a decent bit of oil which leaves me to believe that the PCV in the intake is probably bad as I just have the other port on the valve cover vented. Would that lead to higher than normal MAP readings at idle?
 

Gtstorey

Goblin Guru
I get confused on pcv systems without studying them each time, but I think venting to atmosphere causes a problem. That air is being measured by the MAF but not passing through the burn process. I think.
 

ctuinstra

Goblin Guru
I just starting to look at things. Maybe I missed something, but there are couple of things I have questions about in this tune.

1) Why is closed loop disabled? Without closed loop, it cannot automatically adjust fuel trims, etc.
2) Why is LTFT also disabled?
3) Spark smoothing is disabled

There is not much the ECM can do to help with this tune.

Don't worry about scaling the injectors! The VE table and MAF can correct for the larger injectors. I run 60lbs injectors (with a boost-referenced fuel pressure) and it works great.

A good VE and MAF tune will help a lot. You are currently running mostly off of MAF at with this tune. Have you tired to use the VE only? Surely your MAF is mounted the correct direction??
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
I just starting to look at things. Maybe I missed something, but there are couple of things I have questions about in this tune.

1) Why is closed loop disabled? Without closed loop, it cannot automatically adjust fuel trims, etc.
2) Why is LTFT also disabled?
3) Spark smoothing is disabled

There is not much the ECM can do to help with this tune.

Don't worry about scaling the injectors! The VE table and MAF can correct for the larger injectors. I run 60lbs injectors (with a boost-referenced fuel pressure) and it works great.

A good VE and MAF tune will help a lot. You are currently running mostly off of MAF at with this tune. Have you tired to use the VE only? Surely your MAF is mounted the correct direction??
This current tune has fuel trims and VE disabled to calibrate the MAF. It was getting within +-5% before this idling issue started popping up. I went and enabled closed loop and fuel trims to see if it made a difference but It still had this random poor idle after running fine for a few minutes. As for spark smoothing I did not turn that off, The tuner I was working with did at some point in our process. He kept making many drastic changes and kept trying to blame everything but the tune so I verified all sensors had good connectivity and started tuning myself. I was making much better progress until I hit this wall
 

Joebob

Goblin Guru
Ah, this explains the MAF air value differences compared to stock and the injector scaling listed in your injector attachement:

"GM Gen IV Calibration Scaling

As many people have seen, GM’s E40, E38, and E67 PCMs in certain vehicles are limited to a maximum flow rate of 63.5 lb/hr for injectors. This poses a problem for anybody wanting to use injectors that go past this limit. Some of the newer platforms (2009 LS3 Corvette, 2010 Z06, 2010 Camaro for example) have twice the limit at 127 lb/hr which simplifies things greatly. However, these vehicles are still plagued by the 1.36 g/cyl limit of the spark tables. Chances are anybody needing injectors bigger than 63.5 lb/hr will pass 1.36 g/cyl anyway, so the double IFR limit isn’t as useful anymore. This necessitates the need for scaling the calibration. Scaling means just that… Scaling everything down to compensate for the hard coded limits. Assuming a return style fuel system, a user might have injectors that flow 80 lb/hr at 58psi (since this is return, the IFR table would be populated with 80 lb/hr in every cell). We can’t enter 80 lb/hr as the flow rate… but 75% of 80 lb/hr would be 60 lb/hr, which falls under the hard coded limit. For this person, scaling the tune by 75% would work. However, scaling by 50% is the easiest, and the answer to “Why?” will become clear later. So if we scale by 50%, we would enter 40 lb/hr for the flow rate across the entire table, effectively telling the PCM that the injectors are half as big as they actually are. Obviously, this is going to throw everything else off.

The first and most obvious things to correct are the airflow measurements (MAF and VE). These are easy… Highlight the entire MAF table and multiply by 50%, and do the same for the VE (this article will not go into detail about how to manipulate the equation based VE of the newer operating systems… that is up to the reader, who needs to know that the calculated values need to be halved). This includes Cranking VE! Some people think that simply cutting the defined engine displacement in half will eliminate the need to scale the VE, but this is not true, as the PCMs affected by this injector limit don’t use the engine displacement in the calculations… it’s built directly into the VE numbers (sometimes referred to as GMVE). Once these are scaled, everything is done, right? Unfortunately, it doesn’t stop there. After cutting the airflow measurements in half, we’ve now reduced cylinder airmass reporting in half. What used to be 0.64 g/cyl is now 0.32 g/cyl in the tables. This starts to affect all of the spark tables, so they need to be adjusted accordingly. This is where scaling by 50% becomes easier than any other multiplier, because we can just copy/paste almost everything for the spark tables. As shown below, the spark values from 0.40 g/cyl just get copied into the 0.20 g/cyl row. If we were scaling by 75%, there are some instances that allow copy paste. For example, the 0.32 g/cyl row can be copied into the 0.24 g/cyl row, but interpolation is required to do most of the rows. The extent of what tables need to be scaled is left up to the reader, as this isn’t meant to be an outline to go step by step on what to do, but rather to show the methodology behind scaling a tune.

Any table with cylinder airmass as an axis has to be scaled, and there are tables buried in various sections of the tune. Spend some time and find them all so that you aren’t hunting for a problem later. The injector flow rate, airflow measurements, and spark tables are the brunt of what needs to be scaled. However, there are still other areas that need to be scaled down. Any value that is in lb/hr needs to be scaled, along with anything that could be a waterfall effect (like g/cyl which is a calculated result of the flow rate scaling). Don’t forget that tables concerning knock sensors and DFCO fall into this category. Another obscure point is the torque calculation. Any value represented as torque should be halved (Torque Management in the Engine calibration can likely be ignored here since most people max these tables out anyway), like the AC Torque tables. Torque calculations are more important for the automatic crowd, which opens a whole new world of scaling requirements for the transmission. With HP Tuners, you can click on the torque axis of a table and open the labels, allowing you to just divide those labels by 2 and properly adjust the table by 50%.

You can also adjust the data set itself if you want to leave the axis labels alone. Changing the axis labels themselves is ultimately easier, because it eliminates the need to curve fit the data set to a new set of labels (Excel can easily do this curve fitting if the user is savvy enough to use INDEX and LINEST functions coupled with arrays… or take the long, laborious route of graphing the data, applying a trend line, and copying the coefficients from the trend line equation). Curve fitting can get unreliable when the data set isn’t very large, though. Sometimes you can manually refit the values to follow the trend, especially if you’re going to tweak them in the tune later anyway.Going back to airflow measurements that require scaling, a few tables of interest to point out are the Cylinder Charge Temperature Bias vs. Airflow and Cylinder Charge Temperature Filter Coefficient vs. Airflow tables.

For a 2006 Corvette Z06, these tables are linear, so they are easy to fit to a scaled set of axis labels. As mentioned, these tables are very easy to deal with. Other tables, like the Closed Loop Mode vs. Airflow and the LTFT Purge Reduction Factor tables (both of which have axis labels in lb/hr of airflow) aren’t linear, and become harder to scale. Again, scaling by 50% makes these easier. However, regardless of the factor for scaling, it may be a good idea to curve fit these using 6 th order polynomial fitting. This refers back to the INDEX and LINEST functions with arrays, or just graphing the data and curve fitting it. When setting up your array, simply copy the table with the labels, then divide the labels in half. Generate the data with these adjusted axis labels, and then fill it all in. Putting the use of curve fitting into words is difficult to do, so I apologize if it’s hard to understand"



I guess, my question is has this been filtered throughout the tune to account for the larger injectors. Without a wideband in place, I would turn on your LTFT and STFT corrections and plot those as errors against your MAF and VE as a patch to see what is going on with the engine.

To me it looks like it times out to run a check or adjustment and falls on its face when it does it.

Joe
 

Ross

Goblin Guru
The "GM Gen IV Calibration Scaling" article from Dave Steck is here with the graphics.
Our P12 ECM that is in the 2006 SC LSJ is considered a Gen 3. I would guess it would have the Gen 4 limits, and possibly more limits. I wonder if we can just follow the above article for the P12?

Here are our goblin PCM or ECUs that I found here.
E16A (early L61): can't be tuned
P12 (LSJ): no flex fuel support
E37 (late L61/LAP): flex fuel sensor
E67 (LE5): flex fuel sensor
E69 (LNF): inferred (kinda?)
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
Today I was able to idle the goblin for about 30 mins without the roughness coming back. Made a few changes based on our discussions but I couldn't tell you which made THE difference. I didn't go out for a drive to re-calibrate the MAF so everything is only at idle. Let's talk about the changes and the thought behind them.

Idle ETC scalar: 1975 -> 3700
-I was struggling with timing going negative at idle due to what I believe was to much fluctuation of the throttle. The ETC scalar increase should slow the movement on the throttle blade. I've come across a few forum posts recommending raising the scalar when running an aggressive set of cams.

Injector Flow rate Vs. KPA: double checked tuners work and found a difference between this table and the spreadsheet provided by Fuel Injector Connections.

Base Spark: Adjusted spark according to recommended changes in the spreadsheet (Reduced by 62.72%)

Spark Smoothing: Enabled

LTFT and STFT: re-enabled trims to calibrate MAF without a wideband (replacement is still on order...)



Still unsure why my MAP is still high at idle. I replaced the EGR off the valve cover to the intake and checked for vacuum leaks and it all checks out. I'm leaning towards the upgraded cam causing it.
 

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ctuinstra

Goblin Guru
Stock on the Idle ETC scalar is 2,950, which is what you had in your previous tune file posted. So not sure where you got the 1975 from. Not saying anything about this, just simply an observation, that's all. So you ultimately went from 2,950 to 3,700. That's interesting to know. Never was too sure what that was about.

While it's good to correct the flow rates, ultimately the closed loop will do that for you in the LTFT. I doubt that was the fix, but certainly can't hurt to correct.

The base spark was only changed by 1 degree, that would surprise me if that made a huge difference.

Your fuel trims look awesome! LTFT of 1-2% is spot on. The STFT are doing there thing getting that nice oscillation of the O2 sensor.

40774


Quite frankly, what I'm seeing in the logging data, it's looks really good.

I've always heard that a larger cam with more overlap can cause for a poor vacuum (higher MAP). I have a large cam in the 454 in my '68 vette and I have a terrible vacuum at idle. Made it a pain to try and tune the carb with a vacuum gauge. AND the headlights are vacuum operated! It takes a very long time for them to go up or down. It doesn't effect the brake booster, because there isn't one, manual brakes on this baby.

Good job making headway! It would be interesting to change one thing a time to see what made the biggest difference.
 

ctuinstra

Goblin Guru
What is map at key on engine off?
Should be around 100kPa, correct?

Our vacuum line to the brake booster leaked once and it ran and idled like crap. Being a vacuum leak, I'm sure it raised the MAP during that time. I know he has already checked for a vacuum leak but it may not hurt to cap off everything after the throttle body (even the bypass) just to make sure. But it sounds like he has made a lot a headway recently.
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
Stock on the Idle ETC scalar is 2,950, which is what you had in your previous tune file posted. So not sure where you got the 1975 from.
Lol I'm not sure why I typed 1975. you are correct it was at 2950 before

The biggest change came from the ETC scalar adjustment but it makes sense as it is used for cylinder air mass calculations and threw the AFR off. I did do each change individually but couldn't seem to upset the engine. Will need to go out and beat on it a bit to really see if it recovers.

What is map at key on engine off?
MAP at key on is sitting at 99kpa or ~14.36psi (Atmospheric is ~ 14.67psi) so I'd say the MAP is decently accurate.
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
Just went on two 12 minute drives in the goblin to a local diner. On the way there she drove great, struggled a little bit with idle and low speed in the parking lot. Flashed the LTFT vs. MAF graphs to the car, They were only off about 2.5%. On the way home though the LTFT was reading very lean. I'm not sure exactly what may have changed them so much. I also appear to be getting some knock on decel. I have a replacement wideband finally being delivered Monday so I think I will hold off on any more tuning via the narrow band
 

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Ross

Goblin Guru
Have you checked your exhaust for leaks? A cotton ball or feather hanging off a string can help find exhaust puffing out of gasket areas. Look for soot deposits on the head or exhaust flanges, and cracks in the exhaust. Check when hot too, since you experienced the lean reading on the way home.
I wasted 6 months of tuning because I didn't realize I had an exhaust leak, and was gathing bad data.
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
Slept on this issue and started thinking about differences between the drive to and from the diner yesterday. On my way to the diner I had nobody else on the road and tried my best to keep everything smooth, steady, and consistent for long stretches. On the way home I got stuck behind two separate people who couldn't decide how fast they wanted to go. I started looking at my logs and realized when I would slightly lift off it would go into OL - Accel/Decel which I thought was strange cause I should only be going into OL on Accel since DFCO was disabled. Well, turns out DCFO was not disabled anymore. I did some basic short run tuning last summer with a tuner making changes and explaining to me with DFCO disabled. He must have turned DFCO back on in one for my later tunes and I had no idea... Gonna go do another drive and see if it behaves any better trim wise without the engine going lean on decel possibly messing with the AFR when getting back on throttle.
 

Keckster

Well-Known Member
Update: Idle MAP still sits higher than expected but found I had the vac lines on the bypass solenoid swapped. I also updated the dfco and now the car catches itself on coastdown easily!!! Here is a quick dirty log of it at idle. Don't mind the excitement whacks of the throttle...
 

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