Texas Revoking Titles (and how you can help)
- Thread starter Adam
- Start date
Rttoys
Goblin Guru
Man. After going round and round with the lady at said “you need proof of ownership of the engine”. Me saying “here’s the title to the whole car”. Same question. Same answer on on on on on. I told her I didn’t know where to go from here.
soooo you need proof of ownership of the engine. There ya go
soooo you need proof of ownership of the engine. There ya go
SACTX
Well-Known Member
Good afternoon guys. I had a fun day at the DMV yesterday and I think I have most of it figured out. After going back and forth with Jason and Russell yesterday, I was going to wait to post this but I did a lot of research yesterday and I think I know what's going on and what to do.
LONG POST WARNING!
So, I'll start with my story. I went to the DMV with all of my information and everything. Boxes checked, extra info on motor, lots of photos, insurance (just in case), Bonded Title form prefilled out ( just in case). I thought it was a slam dunk. I had my ducks lined up and contacts ready in case there was an issue (including the head honcho Charlotte). Something came up that I didn't expect. I was told after some back and forth and the clerk talking to the head clerk and Charlotte that I could title my car but I could not register it. Keep in mind they don't register it there. I was concerned that the title they gave me would not allow me to register it. I heard the head clerk say sand rail and she was typing into her computer and looking stuff up. Charlotte specifically said that the Goblin is not street legal and never has been which is odd because Jason worked so closely with her to get his titled and registered. I even gave them his name to reference and it did no good. I'm getting pissed at this point and reach out to Jason and Russell. Then I showed them the letter that Russell received that Charlotte hand signed saying that he could register his vehicle. I was told by the clerk that it was a "form letter"... At this point I shut up because I was thinking at the time that maybe we fell through a loophole or something and I didn't want them to close that hole. This is incorrect and I wish I had done more reading before. I ended up submitting for the ASVE title and confirmed two or three times that they were sending it in for a Assembled Vehicle title. The Assembled Vehicle Title is the key.
After A LOT of reading and searching Texas Govt websites and DMV rules I've found the following.
Essentially, any vehicle that a hobbyist builds can be titled as an assembled:
Direct from the Texas Transportation Code RULE §217.3:
(5) Assembled vehicles.
(A) An assembled vehicle is a vehicle assembled from the three basic component parts (motor, frame, and body), except that a motorcycle must have a frame and motor, and a trailer or travel trailer will have no motor, and that is:
(i) assembled from new or used materials and parts by someone not regulated as a motor vehicle manufacturer;
(ii) altered or modified to the extent that it no longer reflects the original manufacturer's configuration; or
(iii) assembled from a kit even if a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin or Manufacturer's Statement of Origin is provided.
Unless it falls under one of these exclusions:
Assembled vehicles. The title requirements for assembled vehicles are prescribed in Subchapter L of this title (relating to Assembled Vehicles).
(6) Not Eligible for Title. The following are not eligible for a Texas title regardless of the vehicle's previous title or registration in this or any other jurisdiction:
(A) vehicles that are missing or are stripped of their motor, frame, or body, to the extent that the vehicle loses its original identity or makes the vehicle unsafe for on-road operation as determined by the department;
(B) vehicles designed by the manufacturer for on-track racing only;
(C) vehicles designed or determined by the department to be for off-highway use only, unless specifically defined as a "motor vehicle" in Transportation Code Chapter 501; or
(D) vehicles assembled, built, constructed, rebuilt, or reconstructed in any manner with:
(i) a body or frame from a vehicle which is a "nonrepairable motor vehicle" as that term is defined in Transportation Code §501.091(9); or
(ii) a motor or engine from a vehicle which is flood damaged, water damaged, or any other term which may reasonably establish the vehicle from which the motor or engine was obtained is a loss due to a water related event.
This is from the Transportation Code, the Administrative Code that these rules were written from says the following:
Sec. 731.052. PROCEDURES AND REQUIREMENTS FOR TITLE AND REGISTRATION. (a) The board by rule shall establish procedures and requirements for:
(1) issuance of a title for an assembled vehicle; and
(2) registration of an assembled vehicle.
(b) Rules adopted under Subsection (a):
(1) may not exclude a type of assembled vehicle, other than an assembled vehicle described by Section 731.051(b), from eligibility for title and registration;
(2) must establish the form of a title issued for an assembled vehicle; and
(3) must exempt an assembled vehicle or a type of assembled vehicle from any provision of Chapter 501 or 502 that an assembled vehicle or type of assembled vehicle, by its nature, cannot comply with or otherwise meet the requirements of.
The underlined portion is important. Essentially, every car that's built that does not meet the exclusions is able to be titled AND REGISTERED under the Assembled Vehicle rules.
Additionally, the rules say that any car that is able to be titled as an assembled vehicle is capable of being registered for street use. They cannot exclude any type of car. It's not relevant if they call it a sandrail or buggy or anything else as long as the mfg of the kit or builder of the car didn't intent it to be used only offroad or on a racetrack.
Now, this is where it gets weird. If you search for "RULE §217.3 Buggy" or "RULE §217.3" it pulls up the old code that excludes buggys from being titled.
You have to specifically go to the Texas Administrative Code Website look up Title 43, Part 10, Chapter 217, Subchapter A, Rule 217.3 to get to the new rule.
My educated, or uneducated guess pending your opinion of me, is that Charlotte and the staff are still linked to the old rules and not pulling up the newly revised rules. They may have gotten a couple right but then after a long weekend got it wrong
. The fact that the old rule is still up on the SOS website is the problem.
I'm still waiting to make sure my letter is the same as Jason's and Russel's but from my reading of all of the statues and rules, if it passes to be titled as an assembled vehicle, it can be registered. They should only be able to ask for more information or a revision to something to be able to title it. For instance, if they say it doesn't have a body and deny the title, take pictures with the hood on and resubmit. You never know when dealing with the DMV or State though.....
So, print out these new rules to take with you when you go to title your car. Don't talk about registration or worry about it. Don't respond if they ask about registration and just get the title. Ask specifically for an "Assembled Vehicle Title". If they say no you cannot title a buggy or sandrail, whip out the newly revised version of the Admin Code and Transportation Rule with the correct web address and fight it. Just make sure that they title it under an Assembled Vehicle and you should be good.
Also, just to clear things up, make sure you take pictures with the hood on if you have one. That is one of the excluding factors (it's listed as one of the parts of a car) but the way that the code reads, the body is only required if the car looses it's "identity". The Goblin does not need it's body and is still identifiable without a body, in fact a body is not part of the basic car as it's sold, so that should not be an excluding factor. I did not have pictures with my hood on so that might be part of why they started talking like they did. I did have my footwell cover on. We shall see.
Links to correct statutes and rules:
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.501.htm Titles
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.502.htm Registration
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.731.htm Assembled Vehicles
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=43&pt=10&ch=217&rl=3 Titles
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=43&pt=10&ch=217&rl=23 Registration
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=5&ti=43&pt=10&ch=217&sch=L&rl=Y Assembled Vehicles
Good luck everyone.
LONG POST WARNING!
So, I'll start with my story. I went to the DMV with all of my information and everything. Boxes checked, extra info on motor, lots of photos, insurance (just in case), Bonded Title form prefilled out ( just in case). I thought it was a slam dunk. I had my ducks lined up and contacts ready in case there was an issue (including the head honcho Charlotte). Something came up that I didn't expect. I was told after some back and forth and the clerk talking to the head clerk and Charlotte that I could title my car but I could not register it. Keep in mind they don't register it there. I was concerned that the title they gave me would not allow me to register it. I heard the head clerk say sand rail and she was typing into her computer and looking stuff up. Charlotte specifically said that the Goblin is not street legal and never has been which is odd because Jason worked so closely with her to get his titled and registered. I even gave them his name to reference and it did no good. I'm getting pissed at this point and reach out to Jason and Russell. Then I showed them the letter that Russell received that Charlotte hand signed saying that he could register his vehicle. I was told by the clerk that it was a "form letter"... At this point I shut up because I was thinking at the time that maybe we fell through a loophole or something and I didn't want them to close that hole. This is incorrect and I wish I had done more reading before. I ended up submitting for the ASVE title and confirmed two or three times that they were sending it in for a Assembled Vehicle title. The Assembled Vehicle Title is the key.
After A LOT of reading and searching Texas Govt websites and DMV rules I've found the following.
Essentially, any vehicle that a hobbyist builds can be titled as an assembled:
Direct from the Texas Transportation Code RULE §217.3:
(5) Assembled vehicles.
(A) An assembled vehicle is a vehicle assembled from the three basic component parts (motor, frame, and body), except that a motorcycle must have a frame and motor, and a trailer or travel trailer will have no motor, and that is:
(i) assembled from new or used materials and parts by someone not regulated as a motor vehicle manufacturer;
(ii) altered or modified to the extent that it no longer reflects the original manufacturer's configuration; or
(iii) assembled from a kit even if a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin or Manufacturer's Statement of Origin is provided.
Unless it falls under one of these exclusions:
Assembled vehicles. The title requirements for assembled vehicles are prescribed in Subchapter L of this title (relating to Assembled Vehicles).
(6) Not Eligible for Title. The following are not eligible for a Texas title regardless of the vehicle's previous title or registration in this or any other jurisdiction:
(A) vehicles that are missing or are stripped of their motor, frame, or body, to the extent that the vehicle loses its original identity or makes the vehicle unsafe for on-road operation as determined by the department;
(B) vehicles designed by the manufacturer for on-track racing only;
(C) vehicles designed or determined by the department to be for off-highway use only, unless specifically defined as a "motor vehicle" in Transportation Code Chapter 501; or
(D) vehicles assembled, built, constructed, rebuilt, or reconstructed in any manner with:
(i) a body or frame from a vehicle which is a "nonrepairable motor vehicle" as that term is defined in Transportation Code §501.091(9); or
(ii) a motor or engine from a vehicle which is flood damaged, water damaged, or any other term which may reasonably establish the vehicle from which the motor or engine was obtained is a loss due to a water related event.
This is from the Transportation Code, the Administrative Code that these rules were written from says the following:
Sec. 731.052. PROCEDURES AND REQUIREMENTS FOR TITLE AND REGISTRATION. (a) The board by rule shall establish procedures and requirements for:
(1) issuance of a title for an assembled vehicle; and
(2) registration of an assembled vehicle.
(b) Rules adopted under Subsection (a):
(1) may not exclude a type of assembled vehicle, other than an assembled vehicle described by Section 731.051(b), from eligibility for title and registration;
(2) must establish the form of a title issued for an assembled vehicle; and
(3) must exempt an assembled vehicle or a type of assembled vehicle from any provision of Chapter 501 or 502 that an assembled vehicle or type of assembled vehicle, by its nature, cannot comply with or otherwise meet the requirements of.
The underlined portion is important. Essentially, every car that's built that does not meet the exclusions is able to be titled AND REGISTERED under the Assembled Vehicle rules.
Additionally, the rules say that any car that is able to be titled as an assembled vehicle is capable of being registered for street use. They cannot exclude any type of car. It's not relevant if they call it a sandrail or buggy or anything else as long as the mfg of the kit or builder of the car didn't intent it to be used only offroad or on a racetrack.
Now, this is where it gets weird. If you search for "RULE §217.3 Buggy" or "RULE §217.3" it pulls up the old code that excludes buggys from being titled.
You have to specifically go to the Texas Administrative Code Website look up Title 43, Part 10, Chapter 217, Subchapter A, Rule 217.3 to get to the new rule.
My educated, or uneducated guess pending your opinion of me, is that Charlotte and the staff are still linked to the old rules and not pulling up the newly revised rules. They may have gotten a couple right but then after a long weekend got it wrong
. The fact that the old rule is still up on the SOS website is the problem.I'm still waiting to make sure my letter is the same as Jason's and Russel's but from my reading of all of the statues and rules, if it passes to be titled as an assembled vehicle, it can be registered. They should only be able to ask for more information or a revision to something to be able to title it. For instance, if they say it doesn't have a body and deny the title, take pictures with the hood on and resubmit. You never know when dealing with the DMV or State though.....
So, print out these new rules to take with you when you go to title your car. Don't talk about registration or worry about it. Don't respond if they ask about registration and just get the title. Ask specifically for an "Assembled Vehicle Title". If they say no you cannot title a buggy or sandrail, whip out the newly revised version of the Admin Code and Transportation Rule with the correct web address and fight it. Just make sure that they title it under an Assembled Vehicle and you should be good.
Also, just to clear things up, make sure you take pictures with the hood on if you have one. That is one of the excluding factors (it's listed as one of the parts of a car) but the way that the code reads, the body is only required if the car looses it's "identity". The Goblin does not need it's body and is still identifiable without a body, in fact a body is not part of the basic car as it's sold, so that should not be an excluding factor. I did not have pictures with my hood on so that might be part of why they started talking like they did. I did have my footwell cover on. We shall see.
Links to correct statutes and rules:
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.501.htm Titles
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.502.htm Registration
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/TN/htm/TN.731.htm Assembled Vehicles
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=43&pt=10&ch=217&rl=3 Titles
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=43&pt=10&ch=217&rl=23 Registration
https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=5&ti=43&pt=10&ch=217&sch=L&rl=Y Assembled Vehicles
Good luck everyone.
Last edited:
SACTX
Well-Known Member
I forgot to add this. For the assembled vehicle title, they can call it a sand rail and determine it’s an off-highway vehicle, but the actual definition of a "Sand Rail" in the Transportation Code is as follows:
(3) "Sand rail" means a vehicle, as defined by Section 502.001, that:
(A) is designed or built primarily for off-highway use in sandy terrains, including for use on sand dunes;
(B) has a tubular frame, an integrated roll cage, and an engine that is rear-mounted or placed midway between the front and rear axles of the vehicle; and
(C) has a gross vehicle weight, as defined by Section 541.401, of:
(i) not less than 700 pounds; and
(ii) not more than 2,000 pounds.
This comes up in the Definition of a "Motor Vehicle" in Transportation Code Chapter 501 and Chapter 551A defining an off-highway vehicle and a Sand Rail being one of those.
The Goblin is not a "Sand Rail" by definition as it is not designed or built primarily for use in "sandy terrains". It is defined as a "Motor Vehicle". The Goblin A/T would have a harder fight on this one.
(17) "Motor vehicle" means:
(A) any motor driven or propelled vehicle required to be registered under the laws of this state;
(B) a trailer or semitrailer, other than manufactured housing, that has a gross vehicle weight that exceeds 4,000 pounds;
(C) a travel trailer;
(D) an off-highway vehicle, as defined by Section 551A.001; or
(E) a motorcycle or moped that is not required to be registered under the laws of this state.
The last thing is that they say in some of the excludable items "as determined by the department" so we're not as out of the woods as we first thought.
Thanks
(3) "Sand rail" means a vehicle, as defined by Section 502.001, that:
(A) is designed or built primarily for off-highway use in sandy terrains, including for use on sand dunes;
(B) has a tubular frame, an integrated roll cage, and an engine that is rear-mounted or placed midway between the front and rear axles of the vehicle; and
(C) has a gross vehicle weight, as defined by Section 541.401, of:
(i) not less than 700 pounds; and
(ii) not more than 2,000 pounds.
This comes up in the Definition of a "Motor Vehicle" in Transportation Code Chapter 501 and Chapter 551A defining an off-highway vehicle and a Sand Rail being one of those.
The Goblin is not a "Sand Rail" by definition as it is not designed or built primarily for use in "sandy terrains". It is defined as a "Motor Vehicle". The Goblin A/T would have a harder fight on this one.
(17) "Motor vehicle" means:
(A) any motor driven or propelled vehicle required to be registered under the laws of this state;
(B) a trailer or semitrailer, other than manufactured housing, that has a gross vehicle weight that exceeds 4,000 pounds;
(C) a travel trailer;
(D) an off-highway vehicle, as defined by Section 551A.001; or
(E) a motorcycle or moped that is not required to be registered under the laws of this state.
The last thing is that they say in some of the excludable items "as determined by the department" so we're not as out of the woods as we first thought.
Thanks
Last edited:
SACTX
Well-Known Member
So to give everyone an update.
I received a call on Monday that they needed a VTR68A even though the Goblin's VIN is on the MCO. This might be because the donor Cobalt was from Florida and had a Florida title still but I'm not convinced about that. The State now requires all cars titled from other states to go through a VIN inspection before getting titled in Texas. I just found this out and would have had to have this inspection on the Cobalt if I had titled it in Texas. The thing about this is that they didn't want to see the Cobalt, they wanted to see the Goblin.
It needs to be done by a Detective with the Automobile Crime Unit or Taskforce from the local police force in your county. Montgomery County is appointment only and has a couple of time slots, only on Tuesdays...appointments have to made before Monday at 3:00. Luckily I was able to get an appointment. Thank you to Russell for jumping and letting me borrow your trailer again, with a quickness.
The detective seemed somewhat unhappy about inspecting my Goblin and seemed beside himself that I was going to title and register this car. He told me multiple times " "They" are going to give you hell for this one....". Tried to ask me if I was titling as a motorcycle.... I quoted the new ASVE rules and when they were passed and I guess he figured I knew what I was talking about. He wanted proof of the motor and asked multiple times just like the deal with Russell. Same thing here. Here's the title to the car, bill of sale, the motor was in the car and I have pictures of the demo.... He asked about a few specific things on the car, I think to make sure that I was the one that built it. I now think he was low level interrogating me and looking for any wrinkle that something was amiss... After about 5-10 minutes took my paperwork and went inside for about 20 to 25 minutes and came back with my 68A. Not really a big deal or hassle, just kind of weird and he was nice enough but just weird.
I scanned it in yesterday afternoon and emailed it to the clerk with additional pictures of the unpainted body installed. I received a response from the clerk this morning that it had been sent up the chain to Charlotte and he assumed it was headed to Austin.
So, in summary. Get this form if your donor is from out of state and take pictures of the Goblin with the body panels. It might be something that they do for all of us. I now think they're trying to track down specific parts (motors) that are not noted on titles or other paperwork anymore. The detective mentioned that he could look up the motor number with the Title but I don't think so. He never looked at the car or motor again after that.
It might be good to get a bill of sale for the motor separate from the rest of the donor car. That would answer the question they seem to keep on asking....
Still not through the storm but at least the application wasn't DOA.
I received a call on Monday that they needed a VTR68A even though the Goblin's VIN is on the MCO. This might be because the donor Cobalt was from Florida and had a Florida title still but I'm not convinced about that. The State now requires all cars titled from other states to go through a VIN inspection before getting titled in Texas. I just found this out and would have had to have this inspection on the Cobalt if I had titled it in Texas. The thing about this is that they didn't want to see the Cobalt, they wanted to see the Goblin.
It needs to be done by a Detective with the Automobile Crime Unit or Taskforce from the local police force in your county. Montgomery County is appointment only and has a couple of time slots, only on Tuesdays...appointments have to made before Monday at 3:00. Luckily I was able to get an appointment. Thank you to Russell for jumping and letting me borrow your trailer again, with a quickness.
The detective seemed somewhat unhappy about inspecting my Goblin and seemed beside himself that I was going to title and register this car. He told me multiple times " "They" are going to give you hell for this one....". Tried to ask me if I was titling as a motorcycle.... I quoted the new ASVE rules and when they were passed and I guess he figured I knew what I was talking about. He wanted proof of the motor and asked multiple times just like the deal with Russell. Same thing here. Here's the title to the car, bill of sale, the motor was in the car and I have pictures of the demo.... He asked about a few specific things on the car, I think to make sure that I was the one that built it. I now think he was low level interrogating me and looking for any wrinkle that something was amiss... After about 5-10 minutes took my paperwork and went inside for about 20 to 25 minutes and came back with my 68A. Not really a big deal or hassle, just kind of weird and he was nice enough but just weird.
I scanned it in yesterday afternoon and emailed it to the clerk with additional pictures of the unpainted body installed. I received a response from the clerk this morning that it had been sent up the chain to Charlotte and he assumed it was headed to Austin.
So, in summary. Get this form if your donor is from out of state and take pictures of the Goblin with the body panels. It might be something that they do for all of us. I now think they're trying to track down specific parts (motors) that are not noted on titles or other paperwork anymore. The detective mentioned that he could look up the motor number with the Title but I don't think so. He never looked at the car or motor again after that.
It might be good to get a bill of sale for the motor separate from the rest of the donor car. That would answer the question they seem to keep on asking....
Still not through the storm but at least the application wasn't DOA.
Desert Sasqwatch
Goblin Guru
Hmm, what happens if you install a crate motor not traceable to the car? Bureaucratic red tape is not something that is going to be kind to this from the way it sounds.
SACTX
Well-Known Member
You'd need to have a bill of sale for the motor. The big problem that Russell and I talked about yesterday was buying a car that had a motor replaced before... Get a bill of sale for the Motor when you buy the car. Use any unique identifying number on the motor that you can find.Hmm, what happens if you install a crate motor not traceable to the car? Bureaucratic red tape is not something that is going to be kind to this from the way it sounds.
SACTX
Well-Known Member
Follow up #2:
I called her back to confirm....She said DPS controls that and it's now a different deal than when Jason and Russell did it.
Just found this on DPS website...
www.dps.texas.gov
Under Kit Car
Must pass emissions requirements for the year it is assembled.....I don't think this was on there before..... Catted exhaust, evap system, etc.
I called her back to confirm....She said DPS controls that and it's now a different deal than when Jason and Russell did it.
Just found this on DPS website...
Vehicle Inspection | Department of Public Safety
www.dps.texas.gov
Under Kit Car
Must pass emissions requirements for the year it is assembled.....I don't think this was on there before..... Catted exhaust, evap system, etc.
SACTX
Well-Known Member
When has Big Brother ever played by the rules? Even their rules?That will be a big problem.
Rttoys
Goblin Guru
Just Incase you want all the rules
Rttoys
Goblin Guru
The way we have been talking about it, basically the evap, cat, and other “normal“ stuff will have to be there and functional. Evap and cat is all we eliminate, so it’ll have to go back somehow.
