Desert Sasqwatch
Bigfoot Goblin
- Desert Sasqwatch Bigfoot Goblin
I'm usually more photogenic.
-
We've upgraded and reskinned the forum. Notice something off? Email us at [email protected] and we'll fix it.
V1 Ross's extended city, easy entry Goblin- 06 SS/SC, NW Arkansas
Desert Sasqwatch
Bigfoot Goblin
- Desert Sasqwatch Bigfoot Goblin
The press may have flattened the flange, but when it heats up again it might want to warp. If it does, you may want to heat the flange - and possibly the pipes - with a torch and re-press it again, then let it cool back down under pressure. Might take a couple of the cycles to get the metal to have memory in the flatter configuration. The last resort would be grinding the flange high spot on a bench belt sander.
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
To put the Davies Craig electric water pump onto my LSJ, I will need to do some engineering.
First I need to understand my stock coolant flow:
a. The stock water pump high pressure enters the engine block via opening #2.
b. When the thermostat is open, coolant exits from the top of the head, pipe #3, heading to the radiator.
c. When the thermostat is closed, the main coolant exit is opening #1, as pipe #3 is restricted.
d. The cooled water from after the radiator (blue arrow below) enters the thermostat housing, and splits to the 2 green arrows, with half the water going to the oil cooler, and half going to the top of the thermostat.
e. The oil cooler returns the water (yellow arrow) and it mixes with the coolant at the top of the thermostat.
f. When the thermostat is open, coolant from the top flows to the purple arrow, which is the low pressure to the water pump.
g. If the thermostat is closed, only water exiting from opening #1 (pic above) flows to the red arrow (pics below). It flows up, thru the rubber loop, then down to the orange arrow, then gets to join with the purple arrow, heading to the low pressure side of the water pump.
h. the white dashed line leads to the coolant overflow tank, so normally there isn't much movement in this hose.
Second, I have an EWP plan:
- installing the electric water pump near the radiator at the front of the goblin.
- remove the stock thermostat.
- modify the stock water pump like 95Blitz did here. He removed the impeller and blocked the hole with 2 Dorman 565-100 30mm engine expansion plugs. The hole is where the impeller drive shaft came thru, that was driven by a chain from the crankshaft. The plugs will replace the shaft and seals that kept the engine oil and coolant separated.
- remove the balance shafts (1172 grams each), sprockets, chain, & chain guides (944 grams). (Total 7.25 pounds. I need to add the balance shaft delete kit parts, so the oil flow is correct in the engine.)
- install the Davies Craig water pump controller.
- install the Davies Craig temp sensor (already done, it is installed in hose #3 above).
- The Davies Craig water pump controller will maintain water temperature by turning the electric water pump on or off as needed.
Once this plan is completed, the coolant will enter the engine block via openings #1 and #2 with equal pressure, and exit thru pipe #3 at the top of the head. This will reverse the flow of coolant at the orange and red arrows... but I don't think that will harm the engine. Opinions?
First I need to understand my stock coolant flow:
a. The stock water pump high pressure enters the engine block via opening #2.
b. When the thermostat is open, coolant exits from the top of the head, pipe #3, heading to the radiator.
c. When the thermostat is closed, the main coolant exit is opening #1, as pipe #3 is restricted.
d. The cooled water from after the radiator (blue arrow below) enters the thermostat housing, and splits to the 2 green arrows, with half the water going to the oil cooler, and half going to the top of the thermostat.
e. The oil cooler returns the water (yellow arrow) and it mixes with the coolant at the top of the thermostat.
f. When the thermostat is open, coolant from the top flows to the purple arrow, which is the low pressure to the water pump.
g. If the thermostat is closed, only water exiting from opening #1 (pic above) flows to the red arrow (pics below). It flows up, thru the rubber loop, then down to the orange arrow, then gets to join with the purple arrow, heading to the low pressure side of the water pump.
h. the white dashed line leads to the coolant overflow tank, so normally there isn't much movement in this hose.
Second, I have an EWP plan:
- installing the electric water pump near the radiator at the front of the goblin.
- remove the stock thermostat.
- modify the stock water pump like 95Blitz did here. He removed the impeller and blocked the hole with 2 Dorman 565-100 30mm engine expansion plugs. The hole is where the impeller drive shaft came thru, that was driven by a chain from the crankshaft. The plugs will replace the shaft and seals that kept the engine oil and coolant separated.
- remove the balance shafts (1172 grams each), sprockets, chain, & chain guides (944 grams). (Total 7.25 pounds. I need to add the balance shaft delete kit parts, so the oil flow is correct in the engine.)
- install the Davies Craig water pump controller.
- install the Davies Craig temp sensor (already done, it is installed in hose #3 above).
- The Davies Craig water pump controller will maintain water temperature by turning the electric water pump on or off as needed.
Once this plan is completed, the coolant will enter the engine block via openings #1 and #2 with equal pressure, and exit thru pipe #3 at the top of the head. This will reverse the flow of coolant at the orange and red arrows... but I don't think that will harm the engine. Opinions?
Last edited:
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
Other thoughts about my new EWP (Electric Water Pump) system:
- I won't be able to purge the air from the coolant system using my red neck method. I will have to use the vacuum pump method.
- removing the water pump, balance shafts, sprockets and chain is mostly to reduce rotating mass. You could just grind off the fins on the impeller, to stop running the coolant pump.
- most builders modified the coolant pump and coolant pipes to add the EWP... but my method just removes the thermostat, and modifies the coolant pump. I considered removing the stock thermostat housing... but it is easier to leave it all stock.
- If you want to remove the rubber hose loop, you could modify the thermostat housing.
from this
to this
In the stock engine, I wonder if the Ecotec design engineers put that aluminum coolant pipe under the exhaust as a way of heating the coolant... it is the only coolant loop when the engine is cold, and the exhaust is the first thing to heat up on a cold engine.
- I won't be able to purge the air from the coolant system using my red neck method. I will have to use the vacuum pump method.
- removing the water pump, balance shafts, sprockets and chain is mostly to reduce rotating mass. You could just grind off the fins on the impeller, to stop running the coolant pump.
- most builders modified the coolant pump and coolant pipes to add the EWP... but my method just removes the thermostat, and modifies the coolant pump. I considered removing the stock thermostat housing... but it is easier to leave it all stock.
- If you want to remove the rubber hose loop, you could modify the thermostat housing.
from this
In the stock engine, I wonder if the Ecotec design engineers put that aluminum coolant pipe under the exhaust as a way of heating the coolant... it is the only coolant loop when the engine is cold, and the exhaust is the first thing to heat up on a cold engine.
Last edited:
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
Pressing out the coolant pump this way did crush the plastic impeller, but it also pushed out the ball bearings. Pushing it out the other way would have saved the impeller, but then you still need to push out the bearings in this direction.
This removed 290 grams of mass. Hard to believe that plastic impeller can cause 10-15 hp worth of drag when the engine is at top RPM. I think that HP estimate was a generalization, and not specific for an Ecotec pump.
There are 2 drain holes in the sides of the housing. If the seals leak, then coolant or oil can flow out, depending which side is leaking.
That explains why I need to use 2 30mm engine expansion plugs. One side blocks oil, the other side blocks coolant.
I always wondered why there was deep pockets in the coolant pump. They like to gather dirt and dust, and are hard to clean.
This removed 290 grams of mass. Hard to believe that plastic impeller can cause 10-15 hp worth of drag when the engine is at top RPM. I think that HP estimate was a generalization, and not specific for an Ecotec pump.
There are 2 drain holes in the sides of the housing. If the seals leak, then coolant or oil can flow out, depending which side is leaking.
That explains why I need to use 2 30mm engine expansion plugs. One side blocks oil, the other side blocks coolant.
I always wondered why there was deep pockets in the coolant pump. They like to gather dirt and dust, and are hard to clean.
Last edited:
- mike_sno Goblin Guru
Great post Ross! I am at the same point. Pulling the trigger in the next few days with the electric water pump. I will go with the BMW pump, but it doesn't really matter.
I was planning to leave the mechanical water pump as is right now with the impeller and have it free spinning. I have to check once the chain is off how much force it need to spin it.
If I understand your post correctly, if the coolant is cold and the thermostat is closed, you do not have any coolant flow over the oil cooler. Is that correct? Of course if the coolant is cold, the oil should be cold as well and needs longer to heat up.
If you completely remove the thermostat, coolant can flow unrestricted in all directions. I guess water will take the path of least resistance to the pump. With no thermostat installed, can you make sure that the water goes the correct way through the engine and the radiator? I think coolant would be pushed in 1 and 2 and return out of 3 to the radiator.
I was planning to put the ewp on the left side where the coolant hose returns from the radiator and comes out of the frame.
Regarding bleeding the water out of the system, my BMW has a bleeding procedure. I think it does pretty much the same thing. Pump on, high speed, low speed, off and starts again a few times. It takes the BMW 10 for the bleeding procedure.
I was planning to leave the mechanical water pump as is right now with the impeller and have it free spinning. I have to check once the chain is off how much force it need to spin it.
If I understand your post correctly, if the coolant is cold and the thermostat is closed, you do not have any coolant flow over the oil cooler. Is that correct? Of course if the coolant is cold, the oil should be cold as well and needs longer to heat up.
If you completely remove the thermostat, coolant can flow unrestricted in all directions. I guess water will take the path of least resistance to the pump. With no thermostat installed, can you make sure that the water goes the correct way through the engine and the radiator? I think coolant would be pushed in 1 and 2 and return out of 3 to the radiator.
I was planning to put the ewp on the left side where the coolant hose returns from the radiator and comes out of the frame.
Regarding bleeding the water out of the system, my BMW has a bleeding procedure. I think it does pretty much the same thing. Pump on, high speed, low speed, off and starts again a few times. It takes the BMW 10 for the bleeding procedure.
- mike_sno Goblin Guru
Lastly, if you install the LAP thermostat housing, which I have done due to the F23 conversion you have an extra point to measure the coolant temperature. I just need to check, I think the housing has no connection for the oil cooler. I put the oil cooler in the loop which is active as the thermostat is closed.
That being said, now I am wondering if my oil cooler even get's cooled if the thermostat is open?!?
That being said, now I am wondering if my oil cooler even get's cooled if the thermostat is open?!?
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
That is true on a stock Ecotec engine. Well there could be a tiny amount of water flow, as most thermostats have a hole drilled thru them.
That is also true on my EWP redesign... the thermostat is removed from the system, but the electric water pump won't be turned on when cold.
I agree. Coolant in 1 & 2, out 3, when the electric water pump is turned on.
I was planning on left side front, after the radiator, but before the frame. I want more weight on the nose of the car, rather than the rear.
It takes the BMW 10 for the bleeding procedure.
10 what? 10 minutes? 10 tries?
If the electric water pump gets stuck in an air bubble, I don't think it will be able to move coolant... but I won't know until I put it in the goblin.
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
Um... the Davies Craig EWP controller takes care of the water pump and radiator fan. I'm not sure if it uses PWM or on/off cycles.
A bit of digging here, and it says:
The EWP®/Fan Digital Controller has two specific functions:
A bit of digging here, and it says:
The EWP®/Fan Digital Controller has two specific functions:
- Will manage the operation of the EWP® by varying the speed of the pump in response to the coolant temperature
- Manage control of your electric engine fan.
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
Yes, I think it will work. The temperature sensor is right after the water leaves the head, so the controller should respond quickly to changes in driving attitudes, therefor full throttle pulls should quickly move the coolant pump to full speed ahead. Normally the coolant only varies a few degrees every cycle thru the engine & radiator, but a full throttle pull can cause a temporary 15F-20F spike.
- mike_sno Goblin Guru
I don´t think I expressed my concern clear. I try it with a little sketch.
Usually cool coolant goes into 2, passes the cylinder,... over the green paas and somewhere in the engine goes to point A. If the thermostat is closed, coolant can not go out 3 and goes out 1 to return to the pump. (the small cabin heater is not drawn). Once the thermostat opens part of the coolant splits in point A and goes out 1 AND 3. and returns to 2. If the thermostat is fully open it goes from 2 to A to 3.
If you now feed coolant with an EWP in 1 AND 3. What makes sure that the majority of the coolant is not just going over 1 to A to 3 and leaves less flow over 2 to A to 3?
In my opinon A is like Tee. It gets coolant and returns it 2 different ways.
If the coolant pass in the engine looks like what I drew, I don´t know!
Ross
Goblin Professor
- Ross Goblin Professor
"paas" is a spelling mistake... you mean "parts"?
In your diagram, I equate the green to the block water jacket around the cylinders, and red to the head water jacket.
Point A is actually multiple small holes that allow water to flow from the block to the head?
I think you are right, that opening 1 is coolant from the head... I will check when I get my engine stripped down that far.
I think that when the thermostat is fully open, it still goes from 2 to A, then out 1 and 3. 1 is never restricted on a goblin...probably on a Cobalt too. I'm guessing the Cobalt heater core has a bypass valve, as you wouldn't want to be able to shut off the flow completely on the heater water lines, as then the coolant would have no circulation when the thermostat is closed.
You made a typo? As your diagram shows 1 AND 2 as entry points, and 3 as an exit.
The stock Cobalt has entry at 2, 1 AND 3 are exits. 1 goes under the exhaust, 3 gets cooled by the radiator, and they get fed back in 2.
I was planning on feeding coolant with my EWP in 1 AND 2. 3 is my exit from the head.
You probably are right, it will have less flow over the block, and more flow over the head.
The head needs more flow... most of the heat from combustion goes there.
If the block coolant starts getting hotter than the head, then convection will help flow the water up, as hot water wants to rise.
I guess I will find out the hard way, just do it, and see if it works. Removing the thermostat, and putting the EWP at the radiator is a pretty easy. Putting the EWP between 1 and 2 would mean mounting it at the back of the goblin, near the exhaust. This is hot, and puts weight on the rear, and I would rather put it on the front. Will it work up front? I think so, but it is an educated guess on my part. Do you think it will work?
Last edited:
