Making HP. LNF, LSJ, LE5, LAP vs L61

[TravMac]

You get a group together that think the same, it's an echo chamber - we aren't too different. Some folks hate motorcycles; some love the freedom and fresh air. I loved learning autocross with my cobalt, but we are significantly better off for every dollar spent on performance for the Goblin. It's all just preference.

I really do think it's hilarious to 'impact' a niche company like ZZP enough to be called out as a contributor to cobalt availability. It's all just banter to hype up their builds and products too. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, every vehicle is up in price right now. I can sell the mustang I've had for 9 years for more than I paid as a V6 manual with 200k miles. The last cobalt I looked at had a hole in the floor pan under the drivers feet and they still wanted 3k for it. The market is wild...

To Ross's point though, the rear suspension design has been figured out closest with what we've seen from Justin. We just don't have availability to purchase that from the folks at DF. It'd be cool to know if any sort of kit was coming out for it or in the works. Otherwise if his plans were shared for his setup that someone could follow and build, that'd be slick too. Otherwise, could always just keep testing/building ourselves.

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

There are a few 'improved' rear suspension projects underway among the builders that utilize UCA/LCA/shocks rather than the LCA/strut suspensions. Developing one is an exercise in researching existing ones that are similar, engineering the hardware to mate with the Goblin frame that optimizes the geometry, and fabrication of the piece parts to make it all work. Then testing by trial and error, with likely rework of something that is not quite right. This takes time and $$$ to pull off the right way - and a little mad scientist thinking to do something no one has tried yet. For those going through this exercise, there is much learned about suspension design and dynamics that makes the efforts put into designing and manufacturing the Goblin an incredible feat from Lonny and his team at DF - much respect!

I anticipate that at some point in the not too distant future at least a couple iterations of a better rear suspension will be fully shared and we will have another round of builders and completed Goblin owners who will want one.

 

[mike_sno]

What's your opinion on a Goblin with a LAP engine. Id love to have like 250+hp. When I look at replacing rods, pistons and adding a turbo, I'm on the fence of just getting a new donor and swap the complete engine to the LNF.

I'm I on the right track or what am I missing?

 

[Gtstorey]

What do you mean by new donor and swapping engine to LNF?

 

[jirwin]

What's your opinion on a Goblin with a LAP engine. Id love to have like 250+hp. When I look at replacing rods, pistons and adding a turbo, I'm on the fence of just getting a new donor and swap the complete engine to the LNF.

I'm I on the right track or what am I missing?

I can chime in here. You wont hit 250+ with an LAP stock (safely). I hit about 230 with the LSJ supercharger. With forged internals you definitely can. Having just done this, in the end it ended up costing more than just buying an LNF/LSJ from the get go, with less performance part availability. That being said, there is an argument for the case of swapping to a 2.4 LE5 setup from the LAP as the LAP uses the LE5 head. Swapping the bottom end out for a gen 3 sand cast LE5 has very high power potential combined with forged internals.

So in any case, if youre trying to be cheap and surpass 250, go with an LNF or LSJ. If ~230 is ok, an LAP is an okayish option if adding ~$2-3k makes monetary sense for a turbo/super setup.

Also, is you are eluding swapping LAP to LNF, its not possible without swapping out everything

 

[Gtstorey]

Also, is you are eluding swapping LAP to LNF, its not possible without swapping out everything

Yes, that is sort of where I was headed with my question. LNF is Direct Injected and can't be controlled by non DI ECMs. And it isn't as simple as swapping intakes to make it port injected.

 

[mike_sno]

Let me explain a bit more in detail. I am looking at a used Goblin. It has most likely the LAP engine with around ~150HP natural aspirated. My question is: I would like to have at least 250HP, maybe even more. I read this document someone posted which talks about the different engines and what you have to do,... If I use the LAP as a base I think I need to change the Rods, Piston and add a Turbo. This cost me I would think around $4-5k. Since the Goblin is so far running, my thought was getting a new donor vehicle with the LNF engine and swap all necessary parts. I think that would be in the same price range, maybe cheaper if I seel some of the donor parts... Plus I would have a spare LAP engine.

I just wonder what makes more sense. I think with the stock 260hp I would be pretty happy considering the ~1600lbs it has to move. More would be nice.

@jirwin You added the LSJ supercharger to an LAP style engine? I think that would proably a good way of doing it first and see if how I like it. Seems to add the supercharger is fairly simple.

 

[jirwin]

Yes. Supercharger setup is the easiest to install, but a turbo setup will probably make a little more because of the lack of parasitic drag and less heat. An LNF stock turbo will take you further than the internals will allow. ZZP recommends no more than 230hp for reliability. Check out my build thread or @Dsteinhorst for an LAP SC build.

 

[Gtstorey]

I would probably either just build a Goblin from the ground up or buy one that is already SC or Turbo but it would be possible to convert to LNF with a complete donor. But a $4-$5k might not be that much beyond a good LNF donor and you would know the state of the motor.

 

[Dsteinhorst]

I'm on year 2 of 250 WHP on an LAP. It's not a ton of miles or track time, but it seems to be holding up well. I understand the risks. I was in for about $2k for my supercharger setup including gauges. If you head down that route, I'd be glad to discuss more.

 

[mike_sno]

By thinking more and more about it, I think i go the supercharged round first. I think responsiveness is probably something not to underestimate in a goblin.

 

[mike_sno]

After reading more and more about the different options. Could I convert the LAP from gas to e85 and add a supercharger?

As far as I understand it:supercharger adds heat, e85 helps getting heat out and both add performance. Guess I would need a supercharger, fuel pump, injectors + e85 fuel sensor and ecu with e85 tuning and capable of reading the sensor.

 

[Ross]

Are you hoping that E85 will keep the intake temps low enough?
I think without an intercooler, you will be putting hot air into the engine, and leaving HP out.
If you are getting an LSJ supercharger, add the LSJ intercooler/intake manifold, a water pump, and a frozen boost heat exchanger.
Either that or an air to air intercooler, but you still need a way to mount the supercharger... which usually means a LSJ intake.

 

[Sluggonaut]

After reading more and more about the different options. Could I convert the LAP from gas to e85 and add a supercharger?

As far as I understand it:supercharger adds heat, e85 helps getting heat out and both add performance. Guess I would need a supercharger, fuel pump, injectors + e85 fuel sensor and ecu with e85 tuning and capable of reading the sensor.

I'm running E85 on an entry-level turbo swap kit from ZZP and the only things different from stock are the larger injectors and an appropriate tune.

You don't need a new fuel pump, fuel sensor, or ECU. If you are running the ragged edge with your tune or switch between a 93 and E85 tune, you may want to consider a new ECU so you can run a flex fuel sensor.

 

[jirwin]

After reading more and more about the different options. Could I convert the LAP from gas to e85 and add a supercharger?

As far as I understand it:supercharger adds heat, e85 helps getting heat out and both add performance. Guess I would need a supercharger, fuel pump, injectors + e85 fuel sensor and ecu with e85 tuning and capable of reading the sensor.

I went down the E85 road and turned around. The lack of MPG (miles per tank, really) and being chained to an E85 gas station was not ideal (especially when vacationing anywhere north of home). I went the methanol injection route. Can't report on how it works yet because I'm still working out other bugs, but it should be a better solution for my situation.

But yeah, as the others have said, there is no way to do flex fuel on an LAP ECU.

 

[Rauq]

But yeah, as the others have said, there is no way to do flex fuel on an LAP ECU.

Not in its stock configuration it can't, but are you sure the E37 can't be pinned for a flex fuel sensor? No firsthand experience with this here, though, just regurgitating what I've read elsewhere.

 

[jirwin]

Not in its stock configuration it can't, but are you sure the E37 can't be pinned for a flex fuel sensor? No firsthand experience with this here, though, just regurgitating what I've read elsewhere.

I went way down that route and came up empty handed. I was ok with E85 as a solution if I had the capability to limp it home or to the next E85 gas station on premium. I grabbed a few other cars with that ECU that support it and looked at there wiring schematics on AllData and couldn't find anything. There are some that are flex fuel on that but its the dumb kind of flex fuel. Reactive, not proactive. If my understanding is correct they use the stock narrowband O2's to determine that its running rich/lean and correct it that way. In any case, it doesn't use a flex fuel sensor to measure the fuel mixture. So you're SOL.

 

[Gtstorey]

Most of the experienced professional tuners on the HPT forum don't think very highly of GM's "virtual" Flex Fuel.

 

[mike_sno]

@Ross I don't think the E85 would keep the temperature low enough, but I believe it will for sure help somehow. Sorry for not being clear, I am still learning about the engine,...

I believe E85 has 2 advantages: 1st It provides a little more performance, 2nd it keeps the temperature lower ( I believe this is due to the fact that it's simply more fuel which goes in the engine.

1. I would not mind getting more power. I do not need to have the engine set up for E85 and regular gas as we have plenty of E85 gas stations around. But reading this thread, I believe it would be best finding ECU which works with a E85 fuel sensor and is tuned.

2. I think everything what keeps the temperature lower is to be preferred.

I wasn't quite sure when I listed the parts I needed and was wondering if you could mount an M62 supercharger without modification on the intake manifold.

As @Sluggonaut said and what I read in this thread I think the fluctuation of the E85 ethanol percentage makes it advantageous to have a flex fuel sensor with a fitting ECU.

Coming back to the root: What's the best way for me to move forward with an LAP engine and the desire of having more HP?
Please let me know if this table is correct: I can adjust based on your comments.

Option	A Adding a M62 Supercharger	B A + Water Intercooler	C A and B + E85 conversion
Parts to be changed	Add supercharger, Pulley, some smaller engine modifications e.g. alternator spacer,.. Intake Manifold from the LSJ necessary?	Add water cooler, water pump, heat exchanger	ECU (E37 and fuel sensor, injectors? fuel pump?)
Problems	w/a intercooler high inlet temperature	Still the LAP base (weaker rods, pistons and block), not the LSJ base	Would probably push the LAP to its limits.
Pros	instant reaction, no turbo lag, cheap, LAP capable,parts available used, stock ECU.	Comes close to a LSJ setup, parts available used.
Gain	Not sure, maybe 20-40HP?	Should bring it to 205HP	not sure, probably 250hp?
Price	$500?	$1000 for a complete kit	$750

Updated Table:

Option	A Adding a M62 Supercharger	B A + E85 conversion	C
Parts to be changed	Add supercharger, Pulley, some smaller engine modifications e.g. alternator spacer,.. Intake Manifold from the LSJ, water pump, heat exchanger,throttle body, O2 sensor	HP Tuners, Injectors, maybe new ECU with flex fuel sensor	Engine swap with new donor LSJ or LNF
Problems	Still LAP base, weak block, rods and pistons	Tuning skills needed, would exceed stock LAP rods
Pros	instant reaction, no turbo lag, cheap, LAP capable,parts available used, stock ECU.	More power
Gain	brings it to 205HP	30-40HP
Price	let's keep it private	let's keep it private	depending on donor

 

[jirwin]

LAP base power: 155hp

+ LSJ intake manifold, m62 supercharger, a2w heat exchanger + pump, LSJ (or LS4) throttle body, and zzp kit (injectors + belt routing) = 230-250hp

Adding E85 and pulling down to take advantage of it would exceed the LAP's stock bottom end power limit imo.

Its really an all or nothing deal.The intake manifold on the LSJ has laminova cores to cool the charge with coolant pumped thru it. It would be stupid not to use it since the manifold is required to go supercharged.

(Also I should be able to sell you my old belt setup cheap if interested lol. Would save you a bit, and you wouldn't need the ZZP kit. I just switched to the LSJ belt setup. Its been a pain in the butt - do not recommend)