Making HP. LNF, LSJ, LE5, LAP vs L61

[jirwin]

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[Ross]

Unless you use a custom mount for the supercharger, the LSJ intake is used to supercharge a 2.2 or 2.4L ecotec.
So Option A has the intercooler using Laminova cores included.
You could build it this far, and see if you want to go further. If you are paying someone for a tune, you probably want to do it once, so you have to decide what option you want. If it was me, I would buy HP Tuners, and learned to tune it. Then you can decide if you want to go to Option B,C or D and not pay someone for each tune.
Option A is going to be a lot more than $500... you will need a wideband O2 sensor, and HP Tuners (or a ZZP tune which costs more than HP Tuners)

Option B is just add a water pump and heat exchanger.

Option C is just a E85 and tuning... you don't have to switch to a flex fuel sensor. You can buy a tank of E85, and test it. If it is E50, you would make a tune for E50, and save it. Depending on your area, you might end up with a few tunes... E65, E85, etc, or maybe you will be lucky, and not have much fuel variation, and not have to worry about it. For the first while, you will be doing a fuel/water test to see how much ethanol is in it, and bring a laptop in case you need to make a new tune.

Option D might be a new ECU with a flex fuel sensor... less work when changing fuel, but a lot more work to set up the engine.

 

[Dsteinhorst]

Here's my almost inclusive list for supercharging. If you can do it cheaper with equal quality, I will drive to you and give you a high five.

 

[mike_sno]

Alright, I edited my post and updated the table. If I see the post from @Dsteinhorst he's about $1500 in it. I wonder when it make sense to just look for a new donor. You still have a backup engine,...

Regarding exceeding the LAP base power. Let's say LAP + Supercharger brings it to 205HP, LAP limit is around 230HP I think. With E85 I would be just above that. Well, if you know it and you can probably also drive it this way, means I don't need to run it to max power all the time and shift 500 or 1000rpm before max power. If I need to race someone, oh well so may be it. I would think it would not fail right away. Would i put it permanently in max power, no.

Lots of options to go from here...

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

Are you using a manual or automatic transmission? The automatic will be another limitation to the maximum amount of power that can safely be made and still be long-term reliable- most sites state it can effectively handle 220-230ish HP.

 

[escapepilot]

While an engine swap sounds reasonable, it most likely will be much more complicated than expected. Swapping particular parts should be ok in most cases but a complete change needs to be thoroughly researched. For instance, my 06 LSJ has different pins and different connectors for a circuit than the 06 2.2L.swapping a complete engine would require swapping computers also and possibly the harness to ensure compatibility. The labor involved would probably be extensive. If you do choose a swap, look for compatibility with the existing systems. Actually, that is a good way to think about it, these Ecotec combinations are more like a system and you would need to ensure compatibility.

 

[mike_sno]

I put some work in the table from the first page, google, wikipedia and all other type of sources lead me to the updated table. I was hoping to get every cell filled, but could not find everything. If you find missing information, please let me know and I will edit the post and add / correct it.

Engine		LNF	LSJ	LE5	LE5	LE5	LAP	LAP	L61	L61	L61
Aka										Z22SE
E85 Version							LE8
Generation		2	1						2	1	1
Aspiration		Turbo	Supercharged Eaton M62	Natural	Natural	Natural	Natural	Natural	Natural	Natural	Natural
Displacement cc		1998	1998	2384	2384	2384	2198	2198		2198
Bore mm		86	86	88	88	88	86	86	86	86
Stroke mm		86	86	98	98	98	94.6	94.6	94.6	94.6
Compression ratio		9.2:1	9.5:1	10.4:1	10.4:1	10.4:1	10:1	10:1	10:1	10:1
weight kg										139
block cast		foam cast							lost-foam process	lost-foam cast
Year(s)		2008 – 2010	2005 – 2007	2006 – 2007	2008	2006 – 2008	2009 – 2010	2009	2007 - 2008	2005 – 2006	2005 – 2006
Model		Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbo	Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged and Saturn Ion Red Line	Chevrolet Cobalt SS	Chevrolet Cobalt Sport	Pontiac G5/Pursuit	Chevrolet Cobalt	Pontiac G5	Chevrolet Cobalt	Chevrolet Cobalt	Pontiac Pursuit/G5
Power	hp	260	205	173	171	171	155	155	148	145	145
Power	kW	194	153	129	128	128	116	116	110	108	108
Power	rpm	5300	5600	6200	6200	5800	6100	6100	5600	5600	5600
Torque	ft lb	260	200	163	167	167	150	150	152	155	155
Torque	Nm	353	271	221	226	226	203	203	205	210	210
Torque	rpm	2500-5250	4400	4800	4800	4500	4900	4900	4200	4000	4000
Redline	rpm	6300
Boost	psi	20
	bar	1.4
Piston cooling jets			Yes
Pistons									Up to 250hp standard
Forged rods		Yes	Yes	GKN Forged	GKN Forged	GKN Forged			Up to 250hp standard
Injection		Direct	SFI	SFI					SFI
Injectors			32lbs/hr until 2006 42lbs/hr 2007
VVT		Yes		Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
Gearbox		F35	F35	F35	F35
OEM Stage kit available		1								supercharger and inlet manifold from LSJ and ECU Software update
Power	hp	290
Power	kW	216
Power	rpm
Torque	ft lb	340
Torque	Nm	460
Torque	rpm
ECU		E69	P12	E67	E37			E37	E37	E16A	E16A
O2 Sensor		Wideband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband	Narrowband

 

[mike_sno]

I wonder if an LE5 before 2007 ( I guess in 2007 they changed and put in weaker internals ) would not be the ultimate best engine if you want to go higher Hp. You have 2.4L displacement, fit a turbo on that and the F23 ? Opinions?

 

[Gtstorey]

I wonder if an LE5 before 2007 ( I guess in 2007 they changed and put in weaker internals ) would not be the ultimate best engine if you want to go higher Hp. You have 2.4L displacement, fit a turbo on that and the F23 ? Opinions?

Have I missed where you have said what you are intending the car for? Or some idea of what your driving experience/skill is? These cars will hurt you quick when you make big horsepower without the ability to handle it.

 

[mike_sno]

Sorry for not being clear. This is about engine tuning not about my driving skills. I most likely end up buying a goblin with LAP eninge and try to shine some more light on the differences between the motor options. This hopefully makes it easier for others to come to an idea of what to buy and what potential they would get.

 

[mike_sno]

Hmm, since I drove my Goblin now for a while I am confinced that the 155HP LAP engine is not the engine I want to stay with. Funds currently do not allow me for any larger dreams of buying another donor with Turbo. I think I have to stick for the moment with upgrading my LAP engine. Now my questions is: Long term I want to go LNF. Would it be better to Turbo charge my current LAP and when the time comes having a spare Turbo or should I just go Supercharged? and sell the SC and engine later on? I think I could go up to around 240HP with the weaker LAP internals for the moment.

 

[jirwin]

Really enjoying my supercharged LAP myself. All depends on your power goals

 

[Rauq]

If you think you'll stop at 240, supercharge it. If you think you'll stop at 300, then maybe swapping everything over to an LNF makes sense. You'll need to swap the computer and engine wiring harness. Not sure if you'll need to swap the BCM and if that would require wiring revisions as well. But if you want more than 300, I think you'd be better off doing rods and pistons in the LAP and putting a turbo bigger than a stock K04 on it.

 

[jirwin]

I did the above (forged internals) with my LAP, so if you have questions let me know.

 

[Dsteinhorst]

Everyone's driving is different, but you'll probably be in boost less than you think. I'm glad I tried the supercharged LAP, but I'd do an N/A build next time. Not that the aftermarket has a lot of available parts, but a 200+ HP N/A Ecotec would be a whole different animal.

 

[mike_sno]

Well, it's such a difficult decision. Almost everything on the LNF is better. ECU, Wideband, Internals, Reachable HP,... Finding a good donor with LNF in South Florida, could take a while... When I talk to people, they say: In a Goblin you will be happier with a Supercharger, since the power is there instantly. I guess that's not wrong....

I had the compression tested on my engine yesterday, all cylinders are good.

When I read @jirwin build log, it seems like adding the SC is not as easy if you do not have any parts left over from the donor.

decisions, decisions, decisions.

All I can say, the 155HP Goblin is OK to drive, but it's not mind blowing. I would not even race against my daily driver. However, the fun factor is there. I just miss the real push the Goblin should bring. My driving is barley over 75mph, mostly up to 4th gear and never under 2200 rpm, to keep it half way enjoyable. Keeping the Goblin in drift when shifting from 1st to 2nd is a hand full! More power would for sure make that easier.

Another reason why I never go under 2200rpm is the vibration. I can't believe that people eliminate balancing shafts in the engine. How bad is that?

 

[jirwin]

Well, it's such a difficult decision. Almost everything on the LNF is better. ECU, Wideband, Internals, Reachable HP,... Finding a good donor with LNF in South Florida, could take a while... When I talk to people, they say: In a Goblin you will be happier with a Supercharger, since the power is there instantly. I guess that's not wrong....

I had the compression tested on my engine yesterday, all cylinders are good.

When I read @jirwin build log, it seems like adding the SC is not as easy if you do not have any parts left over from the donor.

decisions, decisions, decisions.

All I can say, the 155HP Goblin is OK to drive, but it's not mind blowing. I would not even race against my daily driver. However, the fun factor is there. I just miss the real push the Goblin should bring. My driving is barley over 75mph, mostly up to 4th gear and never under 2200 rpm, to keep it half way enjoyable. Keeping the Goblin in drift when shifting from 1st to 2nd is a hand full! More power would for sure make that easier.

Another reason why I never go under 2200rpm is the vibration. I can't believe that people eliminate balancing shafts in the engine. How bad is that?

The initial supercharger install was fairly simple and problem free. After I upgraded it and pulleyed down the belt gave me trouble. I went mega overkill and swapped to an LSJ 6 rib double sided belt system. Its been rock solid, but so was the single sided belt before I messed with it.

Regarding balance shafts I honestly don't even notice it. Its noticeable at idle/high idle but its honestly doesn't bother me a bit. Indount you'd notice if I didnt tell you.

 

[Dsteinhorst]

Most people say they don't notice it, but I did. I'm one of a handful that has done it after initial build. Regardless of which Ecotec you have, it's a tractor motor at heart.

Here's more ammo for your argument: a supercharged LAP doesn't run as well as a factory LNF.

• You're in MAF only mode so no VE tuning.
• You're using a different throttle body that you have to make several adjustments for.
• You have to figure out a PCV system.
• The floppy cam settings don't play well with the supercharger curve so you get to play with those a bunch.
• Your factory spark map is hilarious because of said floppy cam settings.
• You're annoyingly in and out of boost on the highway in 5th gear so you're bouncing in and out of PE.

The list goes on. The neat thing is you can always change what you don't like. In your case, to move to an LNF, you'd be essentially building a new Goblin with a new donor. That's the commitment you'd be making.

Its $2k or so to supercharge the LAP. Josh and I could pretty much walk you through it. I say do it and have fun for a couple years until it blows up or you get bored.

 

[Desert Sasqwatch]

"When I talk to people, they say: In a Goblin you will be happier with a Supercharger, since the power is there instantly. I guess that's not wrong.... ".
Actually, check your table in post #67. The SC full torque (205 ft.lb. stock) peaks at 4400 RPM after ramping up to that point. The TC full torque (260 ft.lb. stock) starts at 2500 RPM and is pretty much flat up to 5000 RPM - and is 200 ft.lb. at 2100 RPM or same as a SC peak torque at 1/2 the RPM.
Upgrades to the SC and TC will obviously affect the torque and HP curves and affect when the torque comes on with any particular engine build.

 

[Sluggonaut]

"When I talk to people, they say: In a Goblin you will be happier with a Supercharger, since the power is there instantly. I guess that's not wrong.... ".
Actually, check your table in post #67. The SC full torque (205 ft.lb. stock) peaks at 4400 RPM after ramping up to that point. The TC full torque (260 ft.lb. stock) starts at 2500 RPM and is pretty much flat up to 5000 RPM - and is 200 ft.lb. at 2100 RPM or same as a SC peak torque at 1/2 the RPM.
Upgrades to the SC and TC will obviously affect the torque and HP curves and affect when the torque comes on with any particular engine build.

The larger turbos may not build boost right away but the K04 has no lag whatsoever and provides instant power.