V1 DIY Front End Alignment

[Keckster]

This does not sound like a good method.

As I said I already did a full alignment on hubstands the night before and was testing my 3d printed setup afterwards. If all corners are already dialed you can adjust let’s say the front passenger caster camber slightly so long as when you re set the toe on just the corner to how it was when dialed

 

[duthehustle93]

This does not sound like a good method.

I think you might have misinterpreted him, this is a pretty normal way to do things... you'd do a proper 4 wheel alignment with hub stands, alignment rack, or string for the initial setup and touch up with something quicker as "maintenance."

@Keckster Did you find the FM hub stands to be consistent? I used to have a set, and found it wildly inconsistent when comparing it to a real alignment rack and the string/camber plate/toe plate method. Alignment racks and string/camber/toe plates were agreeable to eachother within about 10%, but more importantly they would give me consistent readings. The hub stands would give me a different reading every time, and rarely agreed with any of the other methods, so I sold them. I think I had one of their older ones (V2...?) so maybe that's why, but I was really disappointed in them.

 

[Keckster]

I think you might have misinterpreted him, this is a pretty normal way to do things... you'd do a proper 4 wheel alignment with hub stands, alignment rack, or string for the initial setup and touch up with something quicker as "maintenance."

@Keckster Did you find the FM hub stands to be consistent? I used to have a set, and found it wildly inconsistent when comparing it to a real alignment rack and the string/camber plate/toe plate method. Alignment racks and string/camber/toe plates were agreeable to eachother within about 10%, but more importantly they would give me consistent readings. The hub stands would give me a different reading every time, and rarely agreed with any of the other methods, so I sold them. I think I had one of their older ones (V2...?) so maybe that's why, but I was really disappointed in them.

The FM hub stands were decently accurate from what I could tell. It’s the same old garbage in garbage out type of situation. If you don’t use big washers on at least three lug nuts you could visually see them bending away from the hubs, another issue was making sure the ground you are aligning on is level. Car drove great after alignment I just noticed a slight camber skew towards the passenger side which I assumed was due to the pad we were on not being perfectly level. The best feature I used was the thrust line to make sure the car was straight front to back which is hardest when doing it manually with string and tape measure.

 

[David]

This does not sound like a good method.

Im in the process of printing out all the items on the video to give it a try. I also connected with the maker and he designed brackets specific for our use. Once I give it a shot he will release them for everything to print.

 

[Keckster]

Im in the process of printing out all the items on the video to give it a try. I also connected with the maker and he designed brackets specific for our use. Once I give it a shot he will release them for everything to print.

Like laser brackets for the top hoop? I was thinking about modifying his designs for that

 

[David]

Like laser brackets for the top hoop? I was thinking about modifying his designs for that

Yes sir

 

[David]

Just a little update on the laser Alignment rig. Been 3 days if printing and still have a couple pieces left. Have to order hardware and lasers, but im excited to see if it all works out.

 

[David]

Just finished printing everything, including the special brackets for our goblin. Waiting on the extruded aluminum to put everything together

 

[Keckster]

Just finished printing everything, including the special brackets for our goblin. Waiting on the extruded aluminum to put everything together

Are you willing to share the custom DF frame files?

 

[David]

Are you willing to share the custom DF frame files?

Yes once I test it out, ill have Kent upload them to his website.

 

[David]

Ok fellas, have some questions before I start to tackle my alignment issues which are preventing me from driving. Im going to start from scratch because im not sure what the previous 2 owners did. So bare with me on the all the question I have. Dont want to start a new thread on alignment so im posting here.

- I read guys switch the springs front to rear. Meaning they run the 300 on the Front and 400 Rear. Should I do this before the alignment snice im tweaking everything?

- My steering wheel is not centered. I can I check if its clocked correctly? Is it a matter of counting left to right turn and splitting in half?

- What ride height should I start with before I corner balance? Im running 295/30R18. Also ethier if im switching springs or not. Has anyone determined the proper Droop and Bump for the shock?

- Before I start the alignment what should I set my air pressure too? 295/30R18

- What base alignment specs should I start with?

Sorry for the long post

 

[Ross]

- No. Is there something specific you are trying to fix by switching the springs? I tried several setups, and 300 on rear feels right. I did switch to progressive springs on the front, just to soften the first inch or so of travel.
- Is your steering wheel close to centered? If so, I would turn the wheel straight, then adjust the tie rods. If you adjust the right 1 turn in, then adjust the left 1 turn out. Keeping the number of turn the same will keep your tow-in setting the same, and preserve your wheel alignment.
- Run the lower control arms level, both front and rear. With those big 18" wheels, your ride height will be different than mine.
- 16 to 18 PSI front, add an extra 2 psi for the rears. Use the chalk method to check if the tire pressure is right for your tires.
- front: -0.5 camber, 8 caster, 1/8" tow in, rear: -1 camber 1/8" tow in. I have seen variations of these numbers, but this is a good starting point.

 

[David]

- No. Is there something specific you are trying to fix by switching the springs? I tried several setups, and 300 on rear feels right. I did switch to progressive springs on the front, just to soften the first inch or so of travel.
Nothing particular at the moment that springs will change. Just figured ill ask snice I read some guys switching.
- Is your steering wheel close to centered? If so, I would turn the wheel straight, then adjust the tie rods. If you adjust the right 1 turn in, then adjust the left 1 turn out. Keeping the number of turn the same will keep your tow-in setting the same, and preserve your wheel alignment.
Its some what close, when you drive its towards the left. I'll say guessing around 30⁰, thats the reason I thought it would be good to check. If the steering rack or power steering needed to be checked.
- Run the lower control arms level, both front and rear. With those big 18" wheels, your ride height will be different than mine.
Meaning the lower control arm screwed all the way in ?
- 16 to 18 PSI front, add an extra 2 psi for the rears. Use the chalk method to check if the tire pressure is right for your tires.
Would pressure change the alignment specs or corner balance? Meaning does it matter snice its a base line. I know alignment is going to be a journey but trying to not chase my tail to much.
- front: -0.5 camber, 8 caster, 1/8" tow in, rear: -1 camber 1/8" tow in. I have seen variations of these numbers, but this is a good starting point.

Answers below

- No. Is there something specific you are trying to fix by switching the springs? I tried several setups, and 300 on rear feels right. I did switch to progressive springs on the front, just to soften the first inch or so of travel.

Nothing particular at the moment that springs will change. Just figured ill ask snice I read some guys switching.

- Is your steering wheel close to centered? If so, I would turn the wheel straight, then adjust the tie rods. If you adjust the right 1 turn in, then adjust the left 1 turn out. Keeping the number of turn the same will keep your tow-in setting the same, and preserve your wheel alignment.

Its some what close, when you drive its towards the left. I'll say guessing around 30⁰, thats the reason I thought it would be good to check. If the steering rack or power steering needed to be checked.

- Run the lower control arms level, both front and rear. With those big 18" wheels, your ride height will be different than mine.

Meaning the lower control arm screwed all the way in ?

- 16 to 18 PSI front, add an extra 2 psi for the rears. Use the chalk method to check if the tire pressure is right for your tires.

Would pressure change the alignment specs or corner balance? Meaning does it matter snice its a base line. I know alignment is going to be a journey but trying to not chase my tail to much.

- front: -0.5 camber, 8 caster, 1/8" tow in, rear: -1 camber 1/8" tow in. I have seen variations of these numbers, but this is a good starting point.

 

[Rttoys]

- I read guys switch the springs front to rear. Meaning they run the 300 on the Front and 400 Rear. Should I do this before the alignment snice im tweaking everything?

- My steering wheel is not centered. I can I check if its clocked correctly? Is it a matter of counting left to right turn and splitting in half?

- What ride height should I start with before I corner balance? Im running 295/30R18. Also ethier if im switching springs or not. Has anyone determined the proper Droop and Bump for the shock?

- Before I start the alignment what should I set my air pressure too? 295/30R18

- What base alignment specs should I start with?

Sorry for the long post

Basically everything ross said.

- not sure why you would do that. Just like Ross, I did change my fronts to progressive springs for a bit smoother ride on the street. The stock 400 on the front is fine though.

-number of turns left to right and divide by 2 Will get you centered on the rack. Since you said it’s off, you'll need to use your eyeballs here. Do the wheels point straight or is the steering wheel straight? You may need to rotate the steering wheel on the column if it’s way off (Cant remember if that’s possible though). It also may not be a bad idea to pull the front tie rods and see how deep the threads go.

— do you have the stock subframe and struts Or the Df tubular subframe and struts?
stock subframe and Df struts, I would make the rear tie rods level
df tubular subframe and struts, I would make the lower control arm level.
either way you should be within about an inch or so front to rear.

- like Ross said 16-18. I tell other not to go over 20 psi, but a lot will be on how much tire is hitting the ground. Chalk works best here, but 18 is a good number.

- same as Ross said. Great for the street
Front -.3 to -.8 camber, 8-9 caster, 1/8” toe in
rear -.8 to -1.2 camber, 1/8” toe in

a little higher camber and lower caster on front left vs right, will make it drive straight, due to road crown.
you can go .2 Camber higher on left rear so it’s equal when you sit in the vehicle.
add 200# to the dr seat if you like, to simulate you in the car.

measuring and your eyeballs will be the biggest thing. If it doesn’t “look” right, measure some more.

 

[Ross]

Ok fellas, have some questions ...

- What ride height should I start with before I corner balance? Im running 295/30R18. Also ethier if im switching springs or not. Has anyone determined the proper Droop and Bump for the shock?

Answers below ...

- Run the lower control arms level, both front and rear. With those big 18" wheels, your ride height will be different than mine.

Meaning the lower control arm screwed all the way in ?

Ride height is adjusted by rotating the lower spring perch on the coil over. The rod ends on the control arms is used to adjust your camber and caster, but not the ride height. Park your goblin on level ground, put weights or humans in the seats, then put a 6" level on the lower control arm, with one end of the level near the tire, the other end near the frame, and check if the lower control arm is level to the ground.

 

[duthehustle93]

- I read guys switch the springs front to rear. Meaning they run the 300 on the Front and 400 Rear. Should I do this before the alignment snice im tweaking everything?
I'm running 300# front and 300# rear and I'm happy with it. Are you dealing with oversteering issues? If not, leave it as is. Putting the heavier springs on the front will bias you towards understeer more. If you aren't sure... just leave them as is, and you can come back to it if it needs tweaking. Suspension tuning is an iterative process.

- My steering wheel is not centered. I can I check if its clocked correctly? Is it a matter of counting left to right turn and splitting in half?
For 30°, equally adjusting the tie rods on both sides as Ross described would be best.

- What ride height should I start with before I corner balance? Im running 295/30R18. Also ethier if im switching springs or not. Has anyone determined the proper Droop and Bump for the shock?
DF and everyone says to lower the car until the front control arms are level. It might be a first batch kit issue but to get my front lower control arms level I was nearly riding on bump stops. There's lots of pictures out there with level control arms, so I'm probably an outlier. Once you've set your front height, measure the distance between the frame and ground and set the rear to be level to, or slightly (~1/16-1/8") higher than the front. Rake angle has a significant affect on how a car handles so I'd focus on setting the front or rear height, then making sure your rake angle is correct rather than setting the front and rear independently to match what people say it should be at.

- Before I start the alignment what should I set my air pressure too? 295/30R18
Tire pressure does not have an affect on alignment readings. It's important that they're all even, but the number itself doesn't really matter. I usually prefer to overinflate a bit during garage alignments to reduce stiction.

- What base alignment specs should I start with?
Alignment is 1000% application dependent and there's really no correct alignment for every use. My use is 95% road course use (and currently 100% until i get mine registered) and my alignment specs are twice as aggressive as what Russell and Ross posted. I believe you said yours is a street car in which case I think the specs they posted should be what you're looking for.

 

[David]

Basically everything ross said.

- not sure why you would do that. Just like Ross, I did change my fronts to progressive springs for a bit smoother ride on the street. The stock 400 on the front is fine though.

-number of turns left to right and divide by 2 Will get you centered on the rack. Since you said it’s off, you'll need to use your eyeballs here. Do the wheels point straight or is the steering wheel straight? You may need to rotate the steering wheel on the column if it’s way off (Cant remember if that’s possible though). It also may not be a bad idea to pull the front tie rods and see how deep the threads go.

— do you have the stock subframe and struts Or the Df tubular subframe and struts?
stock subframe and Df struts, I would make the rear tie rods level
df tubular subframe and struts, I would make the lower control arm level.
either way you should be within about an inch or so front to rear.

- like Ross said 16-18. I tell other not to go over 20 psi, but a lot will be on how much tire is hitting the ground. Chalk works best here, but 18 is a good number.

- same as Ross said. Great for the street
Front -.3 to -.8 camber, 8-9 caster, 1/8” toe in
rear -.8 to -1.2 camber, 1/8” toe in

a little higher camber and lower caster on front left vs right, will make it drive straight, due to road crown.
you can go .2 Camber higher on left rear so it’s equal when you sit in the vehicle.
add 200# to the dr seat if you like, to simulate you in the car.

measuring and your eyeballs will be the biggest thing. If it doesn’t “look” right, measure some more.

- not sure why you would do that. Just like Ross, I did change my fronts to progressive springs for a bit smoother ride on the street. The stock 400 on the front is fine though.

Didn't want to do it just read some guys doing it so I wanted to confirm if it was a good idea or not. Won't change them, but after alignment might order some progressive to see if they feel better. Even though I dont mind a rough ride. Will be done AutoX and drive super hard on the street

-number of turns left to right and divide by 2 Will get you centered on the rack. Since you said it’s off, you'll need to use your eyeballs here. Do the wheels point straight or is the steering wheel straight? You may need to rotate the steering wheel on the column if it’s way off (Cant remember if that’s possible though). It also may not be a bad idea to pull the front tie rods and see how deep the threads go.

I will see if its centered on the rack. The wheels look straight but the wheel is off. So what ill do is check if rack is centered. Then check how many threads on each side of the tie rods. Thread them equally and see if i can move the steering wheel straight. Then ill start the alignment.

— do you have the stock subframe and struts Or the Df tubular subframe and struts?

stock subframe and Df struts, I would make the rear tie rods level

df tubular subframe and struts, I would make the lower control arm level.

either way you should be within about an inch or so front to rear.

For now I still have the stock subframe and the DF Coilovers. The rear tie rods, when you say level. Do you mean level them to the ground im assuming?

- like Ross said 16-18. I tell other not to go over 20 psi, but a lot will be on how much tire is hitting the ground. Chalk works best here, but 18 is a good number.

Great I'll start the alignment and corner balance with 18



- same as Ross said. Great for the street

Front -.3 to -.8 camber, 8-9 caster, 1/8” toe in

rear -.8 to -1.2 camber, 1/8” toe in

Is this good for aggressive street driving or just chilling? Sorry im used to driving my ZL1 with track specs on the street. Just trying to get a idea so I know where to start.



a little higher camber and lower caster on front left vs right, will make it drive straight, due to road crown.

you can go .2 Camber higher on left rear so it’s equal when you sit in the vehicle.

add 200# to the dr seat if you like, to simulate you in the car.

I wish it was only 200lb lol. Im 230 so Im trying to see what I can use to put on the driver seat so I can do everything with weight.



How much higher should i go on the front for road crown?



measuring and your eyeballs will be the biggest thing. If it doesn’t “look” right, measure some more.



Thank you for the advice @Ross @Rttoys everyone else. I do appreciate all the help

 

[David]

- I read guys switch the springs front to rear. Meaning they run the 300 on the Front and 400 Rear. Should I do this before the alignment snice im tweaking everything?
I'm running 300# front and 300# rear and I'm happy with it. Are you dealing with oversteering issues? If not, leave it as is. Putting the heavier springs on the front will bias you towards understeer more. If you aren't sure... just leave them as is, and you can come back to it if it needs tweaking. Suspension tuning is an iterative process.

- My steering wheel is not centered. I can I check if its clocked correctly? Is it a matter of counting left to right turn and splitting in half?
For 30°, equally adjusting the tie rods on both sides as Ross described would be best.

- What ride height should I start with before I corner balance? Im running 295/30R18. Also ethier if im switching springs or not. Has anyone determined the proper Droop and Bump for the shock?
DF and everyone says to lower the car until the front control arms are level. It might be a first batch kit issue but to get my front lower control arms level I was nearly riding on bump stops. There's lots of pictures out there with level control arms, so I'm probably an outlier. Once you've set your front height, measure the distance between the frame and ground and set the rear to be level to, or slightly (~1/16-1/8") higher than the front. Rake angle has a significant affect on how a car handles so I'd focus on setting the front or rear height, then making sure your rake angle is correct rather than setting the front and rear independently to match what people say it should be at.

- Before I start the alignment what should I set my air pressure too? 295/30R18
Tire pressure does not have an affect on alignment readings. It's important that they're all even, but the number itself doesn't really matter. I usually prefer to overinflate a bit during garage alignments to reduce stiction.

- What base alignment specs should I start with?
Alignment is 1000% application dependent and there's really no correct alignment for every use. My use is 95% road course use (and currently 100% until i get mine registered) and my alignment specs are twice as aggressive as what Russell and Ross posted. I believe you said yours is a street car in which case I think the specs they posted should be what you're looking for.

- Didn't even get to experience under or over steering. I get to about 40 and its all over the place.

- Got it ill search for some pictures of the level lower control arms. Hopefully i dont run into the issue of riding on the bump stop.

- I built some stand to be level and also have turn plates so hopefully I shouldn't get to much stiction.

- What are your track specs? Road course or AutoX

 

[duthehustle93]

- Didn't even get to experience under or over steering. I get to about 40 and its all over the place.

- Got it ill search for some pictures of the level lower control arms. Hopefully i dont run into the issue of riding on the bump stop.

- I built some stand to be level and also have turn plates so hopefully I shouldn't get to much stiction.

- What are your track specs? Road course or AutoX

Here are my current specs with pyrometer data: http://dfkitcar.com/forum/index.php?threads/tubular-subframe-suspension-setup.5663/post-117925

Max logged speed per my catalyst for that weekend says 120MPH ... mine still needs a lot of dialing in, but it didn't feel too unstable.

 

[Rttoys]

For now I still have the stock subframe and the DF Coilovers. The rear tie rods, when you say level. Do you mean level them to the ground im assuming?




Is this good for aggressive street driving or just chilling? Sorry im used to driving my ZL1 with track specs on the street. Just trying to get a idea so I know where to start.



I wish it was only 200lb lol. Im 230 so Im trying to see what I can use to put on the driver seat so I can do everything with weight.



How much higher should i go on the front for road crown?




Thank you for the advice @Ross @Rttoys everyone else. I do appreciate all the help

I have to think way back on the first question. When I switched to the progressive springs up front I had to get 1” longer shocks too. In hind-site, that has helped a lot of things as it brought the front up about 1/2-3/4” leveling the lower control arms and making it easier to level out with the rear.

rear tie rod leveling-
theoretically, ground level left to right, frame level left to right, so adjust up or down in the rear to make tie rods level. Doesn’t have to be that exact. The theory is, with the tie rods still attached to the subframe, as the suspension cycles, toe will move in and out (I forgot exact amount of movement). With tie rods level, this movement is minimized. The Df subframe (or other creative solutions) eliminates this movement.

front alignment only needs to be .2-.3° higher dr camber and around .5° less dr caster to compensate for road crown.

I autocross and track mine as well as street. Front works well at the settings I and other have said. Rear I’m running more aggressive rear camber around -1.5 to -1.8. Some have different specs, but this is what works for me. A lot of it will come down to what your chalk line tells you for your track conditions.

Once you get the front caster set, adjusting camber and toe to try out feel and where you want your tires to wear, is pretty quick and easy.