V1 Traé’s Goblin (06’ SS/SC #501)

[Rauq]

I don't have a measurement on camber/toe with/without driver weight in the car, but consider the average adult male is over 10% of the weight of the car, I'm sure it changes some. I can easily tell the difference in handling with/without a passenger as well. Is an empty-weight alignment enough to cause issues worthy of re-aligning? I'm not sure, but I also don't know how much effort the initial alignment was for you. You will for sure be close, so there shouldn't be much adjustment required.

A 25 gallon plastic tote will hold 200lb of water, for what it's worth.

 

[Gtstorey]

How big are you? Are you going to spend a lot of time with a passenger? I think it matters enough that I've been considering redoing mine since I lost 50lbs last year. I've got new tires about ready to install and will probably redo at that time.

As far as adding your body weight in, water works pretty good if you have a few 5 gallon buckets with lids plus saving up a few gallon milk jugs.
Or bags of Sakrete.

 

[Traé]

I don't have a measurement on camber/toe with/without driver weight in the car, but consider the average adult male is over 10% of the weight of the car, I'm sure it changes some. I can easily tell the difference in handling with/without a passenger as well. Is an empty-weight alignment enough to cause issues worthy of re-aligning? I'm not sure, but I also don't know how much effort the initial alignment was for you. You will for sure be close, so there shouldn't be much adjustment required.

A 25 gallon plastic tote will hold 200lb of water, for what it's worth.

How big are you? Are you going to spend a lot of time with a passenger? I think it matters enough that I've been considering redoing mine since I lost 50lbs last year. I've got new tires about ready to install and will probably redo at that time.

As far as adding your body weight in, water works pretty good if you have a few 5 gallon buckets with lids plus saving up a few gallon milk jugs.
Or bags of Sakrete.

@Rauq, It took be a bit of time but I think I was being very particular about the numbers and trying to get them too perfect, ive never done this before and not sure what the allowable tolerances are for alignments. I would say I had about 3-4 hours setting up, taking measurements, aligning, torquing bolts, and taking final measurements.

@Gtstorey, I would say ≈190Lbs. I will almost always be by myself but may have a passenger every now and then.

The water idea is a good one, I will have to get some weight in and at least check everything and see where it falls.

 

[Gtstorey]

It's not just your alignment measurements. I would be a little more worried about setting the ride height to get level toe rods as anything else. This should put them in their most neutral position and help minimize bump steer/toe changes. Of course, corrections here would change your static alignment settings.

 

[Sebnuts]

Did you set your ride height with no driver/passenger weight where you wanted it prior to the alignment?
If so, you can add the weight and reset the ride height to what it was without the weight and the alignment will still be good.

I've seen 150lbs in the driver and passenger seat required for alignments on a couple different makes/models (BMW & Lotus come to mind).
If it's just you and you're racing that's a different story, but 150lbs for each seems to be a good ball park average for everyday use.

 

[Gtstorey]

Did you set your ride height with no driver/passenger weight where you wanted it prior to the alignment?
If so, you can add the weight and reset the ride height to what it was without the weight and the alignment will still be good.

True

 

[Traé]

Did you set your ride height with no driver/passenger weight where you wanted it prior to the alignment?
If so, you can add the weight and reset the ride height to what it was without the weight and the alignment will still be good.

I've seen 150lbs in the driver and passenger seat required for alignments on a couple different makes/models (BMW & Lotus come to mind).
If it's just you and you're racing that's a different story, but 150lbs for each seems to be a good ball park average for everyday use.

I only set the coilovers per DFs instruction during assembly. The front lower control arm is about 1° pitched up away from the car. I checked these before continuing based on DFs front alignment thread and figured ≈1° would be okay. The front tie rods are way pitched up away from the chassis and are both reading different values. Passenger at 7° and driver at 5.2°

The rear tie rods are within 0.5° and I checked those before aligning as well.

This is all brand spankin’ new to me so I have a lot to learn with suspension.

 

[Sebnuts]

At this point, I think you'd be better off putting the amount of driver/passenger weight in the car you want and resetting your ride height, then redo your alignment.

This is probably what you're going to want for ride heights(4.5"-5" in the front and 6.5"-7" in the rear):

 

[Gtstorey]

Actual required ride heights will depend on tire diameter.

 

[Sebnuts]

Oops yes, the numbers I listed were based on stock LNF wheels and tires.

 

[Traé]

Wheels are 17” tires are 255/40/17

Actual required ride heights will depend on tire diameter.

What is this “required” ride height trying to accomplish? Level lower control arms on the front and level tie rods on the back?

 

[Sebnuts]

255/40/17 is basically the same diameter as the stock LNF (225/40/18)

 

[Gtstorey]

I think level lower control arm on the front pretty will mean that the front inner tie rods are pretty much level. I don't think a few degrees will really matter.

I think I actually set mine up by leveling control arms front and back, but I dialed out most of the front bumpsteer by modifying the upright. I probably need to look at where the rear rods ended up since the rear is where I still have a little bit of instability.

But mine works so well "as is" for road driving that I'm a little scared to mess with any of it. Only time I notice any issue is coming off the throttle while crossing the road crown after passing another car.

 

[Traé]

So moving forward;

• Add weight to passenger and driver seat.
• Set ride height: Front so the LCAs & tie rods are level (is there a way to level both independently? Caster?). Rear so the rear tie rods / control arms are level (what is more important on the rear? or should they both have the same pitch?).
• Redo alignment procedure.

Does this sound correct? Do any other suspension settings affect the alignment process?

Right now with the front suspension I have taken the slack out of the spring. With the DF rear coil over measurements and the rear end lifted up, the springs are free to move around quite a bit. This always worried me about being correct but I could never find info if that was acceptable.

 

[Sebnuts]

In the rear, if you're going off of pitch, I would say level the rear tie rod.

What do you mean the springs are free to move around? If the car is on it's tires, there should be no play in the springs. That would mean something is bound up or bottomed out.

 

[Traé]

In the rear, if you're going off of pitch, I would say level the rear tie rod.

What do you mean the springs are free to move around? If the car is on it's tires, there should be no play in the springs. That would mean something is bound up or bottomed out.

When the rear tires are not on the ground the springs move around due to not having the weight of the car on them.
The fronts have all the slack taken out so they are tight regardless of the tire being on or off the ground.

is that done on purpose? Or do I need to remove the slack?

 

[Sebnuts]

Oh OK, if there's no weight on the tires and the springs are loose, that's probably normal. My springs are loose on all 4 corners when the car is up on jack stands, but I don't have stock DF suspension either.

 

[Dale E]

Jack up your frame. Screw the spring perch so the spring will not move up or down (it will still rotate if turned). Turn the spring lock width tighter. This will give you some spring preload. At full droop you do not want the spring to have any movement up or down!!!!

Put car back on its tires. roll forward and back to settle. now turn the spring perches so the front Lower control arm is level with the floor. or ground where you are doing this. If your floor isn't level then compensate for that in your settings. When the front lower control arm is level the steering rods may not be equally level on the goblin (they may be up or down slanting). The steering rack on the goblin is fixed position. To be able to fully adjust bump steering and Ackerman settings, the rack may need up/down or forward/back adjustability. You could also achieve this with an adjustable tie rod attachment at the spindle.

Ask others - probably set the rear tow link level (your rear lower control arm may be pointed downward slanting to the tire). Your rear control arm is a bit crooked in shape but if you measure center of subframe pivot straight-edged to the ball joint it may be level.

After you have your ride height set, then align again. Then set your driver passenger weights in and recheck -- adjust as required.

If you could make a long board so it fits under the rear outer ball joint and then jack whole car up placing a jack in the middle of the car. This will lift both rear tires off the floor. Place a piece of tablet or typing paper under the rear tires. lower car. Put a pull string on each paper (can use electric test leads with the alligator clips). While pulling on the papers lift car slowly and see which paper pulls out first. Go to opposite front corner and adjust the spring perch and recheck until both papers pull out at same time. This is a redneck corner weight thing!!

Good luck. Recheck all bolts for tightness. Have fun!!

Others may not agree, but this would be my approach.

 

[Gtstorey]

Only way to adjust the ride height on the front on the stock setup is to change preload on the springs.

The way the rear should be setup is to adjust with about 20-25% droop (tighten spring so that the rear drops about 20-25% of travel when picking up the rear off the ground). Then set the height by ride height adjustment. At least that is how we used to set up motorcycle suspension.

 

[mike_sno]

I'd drive it and see if you're happy with the results.